How about higher heels for MEN's shoes?

[loveheel]

I think there are a few parallel discussion going on. It is true that some part of the male population will accept new fashion trends, and even wear items that are thought of as more feminine. Jeans with a flare, ear rings, etc. are all good examples of that. But I would call none of these even now mainstream fashion for men. In many lines of business the dress code for men is extremely conservative, and any hint of extravagant behavior is seen as a negative. Conservative dress radiates power in business meetings. Prejudice based on clothing is remarkably strong, both against women and men. it is just that the "acceptable norm" for women is much wider than for men. I too have gotten nothing but compliments from women, when I wear women's low-rider jeans. On occasion I even got compliments on my HH shoes. But all this proves that we can look good in what is considered women's fashion. I don't think this at all indicates that this will become mainstream fashion. In my environment, even a three-button jacket is considered frivolous.

[genebujold]

I don't agree with your basic premise that if men are wearing it, women get turned off it. If that's the case why did women want to start wearing trousers? When men started wearing earings, did women stop wearing them? Why do many women enjoy wearing jeans trainers and baseball caps; very much originally a mans uniform?

I do agree with the idea people should wear what they want though. If more men did start wearing heels, I don't believe it would have an affect on women's desires to do so, on the basis of the long hair/earings example. If anything they would want to wear heels more to catch up in the height stakes!

The premise isn't that "men are wearing it so women get turned off."

Consider your case of bifurcated clothing (trousers, pants, slacks). They were considered men's clothing by society at large when women began wearing them. It's a case of "why should I be relegated to wearing skirts and dresses? Why can't I wear pants?" (early 1900's feminists)

Consider your case of earrings. Earrings are worn by men in other societies. People have seen earrings on many a pirate or scoundrel in Hollywood. Dashing, debonnaire, and all that. Besides, when men began wearing earrings, they didn't wear the French dangles and large hoops - just the diamond studs and small hoops - and they're still differentiating earring fashion by gender.

The point is that men still haven't "invaded" women's-only territory with respect to pants and earrings.

Men are "invading" (for many women, not all) women's territory when it comes to high-heel wear.

And that's what has Macy's, Saks, Penneys, Nordstroms, and the rest scared. They're scared that if women see a significant number of men wearing 4-inch black leather pumps, they're far larger women's market will dump that style in a heartbeat.

Oh, not all of them, to be sure. And perhaps not even most of them. But enough of them will to more than counter the slight increase in sales to men.

As for earrings, I suspect if men began wearing the french dangles and ornamented designs currently only found in the lobes of women, those designs might hit skid row, as well.

But there's a hidden jewel, here. If men wore high-heeled shoes specifically fashioned and styled for men, it would work more like the earrings, because women's territory would remain their own.

My personal thoughts on this is that women have invaded our territory with reckless disdain, wearing whatever the heck they want.

It's high time we do the same!

[genebujold]

This weekend I wore them everyday, even around my sister-in-law. I even said so the heels showed and she could see. She never asked "Are those women's boots?". She didn't say or do anything negative. She also didn't run out and say "I better ditch all my boots cause he is wearing them".

My point of all this is, the main obsticle I think we need to get past is not that "they are against us, they won't allow us to wear them", but rather, men won't normally wear anything that will make them look "girlish" for fear of being called "gay".

Lastly, I think the main reason you don't see very large shoe sizes for heels is very simple, supply and demand.

Scotty

Some excellent points, Scotty! I particular like the fact that your sister-in-law shows no reaction, and for that I'm happy for you. I suspect she's either too polite, knows you too well to think anything of it, or is actually accepting (like most women on this board) of the idea of guys wearing heels.

Unfortunately, as they say in statistics, "personal testimony is great for sales, but one datum doesn't objectively represent the sample, much less the population."

I agree with you about why most men would never wear heels. Most men felt the same way about kilts, even though they're specifically designed for men. The movies Rob Roy, Braveheart, and others went a long way towards changing that, and many men who would never have worn kilts before those movies are now wearing them at will.

Thus, the question of whether or not most men will wear heels is indeed a perception issue. They perceive that such activity is either wrong (bible-thumpers), gay (total misunderstanding of the difference between homosexuality and transvestism/crossdressing), or (some actually get it right) tv/cd.

Regardless, they don't want to be associated with intermediate gender preferences. They like the idea of gender differences in clothing attire (at least for themselves).

The only way they'd begin wearing heels is if doing so became mainstream.

As for your supply and demand comment - the demand is there. The size 13 and beyond high heel industry is going gangbusters, and it's not women who're wearing them. Unfortunately, the styles are predominantly FMPs.

The problem is that the fashion industry is hesitant to begin offering their traditional designs in men's sizes.

And the big question of the day is why?

Sales figures indicate it's not a demand issue (and supply could easily rise to meet demand).

So then - why?

I believe I gave a plausible explanation with respect to the fact that it is a supply and demand issue, that the fashion industry is worried that if they began supplying larger sizes of their current designs to meet the demand for larger sizes, the demand for the smaller sizes would drop a greater amount. No businessman in his right mind would do so anyway.

But why would the demand for smaller sizes drop?

Simple. Women (in general) don't like wearing fashions they see on less than gorgeous other women. They're very conscious about that.

If Demi, J-lo, or Drew adopts a particularly distinct fashion look, it's copied, and bought, very quickly.

Then, it's no longer distinct, and quickly goes out of vogue.

But if a far less glamourous public figure (say, someone that carries a negative connotation in the minds of most women) adopts a particularly distinct fashion look, the fashion industry avoids it like the plague because they know sales from that "look" will be slim, at best.

Therefore, what happens in the minds of most women when they begin seeing guys, en masse, wearing spike-heeled boots? Do most women really want to identify with that?

I don't think so!

And there's your answer behind the fashion industry's fear of a larger drop in sales for the smaller sizes that what they'd gain in sales in the larger sizes.

This isn't rocket science, people. But it is basic market economics 101.

I think there's a way out, though, if the fashion industry were to develop a line of men-specific designs for higher heels, and keep the women's and men's lines fairly distinct - same as what's happening in the earring world. This would have minimal impact on demand for smaller sizes, and would open the doors to the demand for larger sizes.

[Bubba136]

sscotty727 wrote

:men won't normally wear anything that will make them look "girlish" for fear of being called "gay"

Has it occurred to anyone else here that the reason most men wouldn't wear anything that will make them look girlish is because they really don't have a desire to?

[Firefox]

That's probabably the reason for most men, as no doubt it's the reason for most women not wanting to appear like men. There remains a sizeable number of men who want to experiment with different fashions which might be considered as girlish. The reason they don't wear them is not that they mind borrowing from the girls section even though they have no wish to be girls, but that they don't want to be labelled "gay".

[Bubba136]

Hmm! There's a lot of assumptions covered there, FF. I don't doubt the number is greatly reduced by the "gay" stigma. However, sizeable number? Wonder what percentace of the world male population?

[genebujold]

I have been asked by many men about wearing heels, but so far I'm about the only one around here who does. In short I would say it has to be something that comes from you, your thing, not some fad or fashion.

I've had a large number of interesting discussions with other guys about my wearing heels. When their in a gorilla groups, the best I've heard is "whatever floats your boat, man." The worst I've heard revolves a boisterous comment like, "will you look at that..."

But when we're talking one-on-one, many of them are full of questions like "where did you get them? How did you find them in a larger size? Dang! Didn't know they made them that big! Are they comfortable? Is it hard to walk in them? Does anyone give you any flak?"

And my favorite, "you've got some guts, but they're pretty cool - they actually look good on you."

Closet fags? Hardly! It's because of comments like these I believe the market is ripe - provided there's a change in the perception of what's considered by the masculine society at large as "cool."

If Schwarzenegger had worn 3-1/2 modified/tapered block-heel boots in T3, I guarantee you there'd be several clones and variations on that theme in the men's shoe departments right now, including variations between flat and 5 inches.

The main obstacle is that very few people are willing to wear anything that's not considered an "acceptable fashion trend."

Consider men's earrings - they've been around since biblical times. In fact, when servants finished their term of service (usually ten years) and chose to remain a servant for life, they would become what's called a "bond servant." The deal was closed by the master piercing the servant's earlobe in inserting an earring. Additionally, the book of Exodus reveals earrings were worn (at the very least) by the Israelite "wives, sons, and daughters," and various other verses in the bible allude to Israelite men wearing earrings - for fashion.

That they wore dresses, skirts, "tunics, robes, ephods," etc. is pretty much a matter of historical fact.

So much for the idea of these items being "women's clothing..."

Yet it took until the 80's punk radicals to punch through the veil of modern conception that earrings were "for women."

Unfortunately, despite the historial precedence of men wearing heels, this one's a little harder to change...

But there's hope!

Consider the idea of women wearing bifurcated leggings is a 20th Century concept/

If anyone counters you with a "yeah, but" objection, politely point out to them that...

1. It wasn't until the 20th century that women ever wore birfucated leggings

2. It wasn't until the 17th century that anyone wore heels for fashion - and that men wore them more often than women, at first

3. The idea of men wearing skirts is so ubiquitous on this planet that fully half the population would call you crazy if you proclaimed that men shouldn't wear mono-tube clothing!

4. The idea of men wearing heels in modern society....

Well, the last one is a bit hard to sell, even though men's heels were indeed an historical item of the past.

I believe the only avenue of hope we have for this being adopted as a major fashion trend is if the following principles are followed:

1. Wear heels in moderation. This means adhere to the same, if not more conservative fashion genre as women. If women aren't wearing fuscia 6" pumps with jeans skirts en masse, then perhaps you shouldn't be wearing them either.

Caveat - if you want to blow the opportunity of guys acceptably wearing heels during your lifetime, ignore the above posts and wear whatever the heck you want, regardless of how outrageous it appears (to others). On the other hand, if you've any desire to see mass society accept men in heels, pay attention and perhaps we'll all come WAY out ahead of the socio-fashional currents of modern society so that you'll be utterly free to wear whatever you want, when you want.

[genebujold]

How ever about 3 years ago I started wearing women's low rise jeans - and I get nothing but compliments. - like men's shoes - men's jeans are dull and ordinary - or youth jeans are to0 baggy and not appropriate for a middle aged man.

Outstanding! I began wearing some of my wife's clothing (namely, jeans and casual, drawstring pants) about three years ago. She feels it's a great way to preserve the budget (and look good) while I feel it's a great way be be comfortable (and look good).

Glad you've found some fits!

[genebujold]

im getting to the point where as long as its not round my family etc, i dont care what people think. Its my life, my choices and if i enjoy wearing stilettos, .. then i will. END TRANS.

Daz

A few (quite a few) more stances like this among men at large, and fashion will change inexhorably for the better (for men).

[genebujold]

And probably for women, as well!

[genebujold]

I think there are a few parallel discussion going on. It is true that some part of the male population will accept new fashion trends, and even wear items that are thought of as more feminine. Jeans with a flare, ear rings, etc. are all good examples of that.

But I would call none of these even now mainstream fashion for men. In many lines of business the dress code for men is extremely conservative, and any hint of extravagant behavior is seen as a negative. Conservative dress radiates power in business meetings. Prejudice based on clothing is remarkably strong, both against women and men. it is just that the "acceptable norm" for women is much wider than for men.

I too have gotten nothing but compliments from women, when I wear women's low-rider jeans. On occasion I even got compliments on my HH shoes. But all this proves that we can look good in what is considered women's fashion. I don't think this at all indicates that this will become mainstream fashion. In my environment, even a three-button jacket is considered frivolous.

Excellent points! And well-mirrored in the following sociological analysis of fashion trends througout society:

http://fashion-ebooks.com/sociology_semiotics.htm#Fashion%20As%20A%20Barometer%20Of%20Cultural%20Changes

[genebujold]

sscotty727 wrote

Has it occurred to anyone else here that the reason most men wouldn't wear anything that will make them look girlish is because they really don't have a desire to?

Yup.

I wear "conservative" heels, at worst. What I mean by "conservative" is that the average passerby will have to look three times or more before concluding, "hey! that's a women's shoe!"

Most passersby look once or twice, and that is all.

[genebujold]

Hmm! There's a lot of assumptions covered there, FF. I don't doubt the number is greatly reduced by the "gay" stigma. However, sizeable number? Wonder what percentace of the world male population?

Hi, Bubba. I strongly believe that while the vast majority of males in the world have no problem with men wearing skirts, the vast majority of them would have a problem with men wearing heels.

Why?

Skirts have for centuries served a useful purpose, wherease aside from a few rice-paddy-picking modifications to the traditional clog, high-heeled men's shoes have served no such purpose other than aesthetics.

So I think you'll find about 60% to 70% ok with men wearing skirts, while less than a third of that number are ok with men wearing heels.

[Slim]

Yes, by all means try to look good, not outrageous. Wear an outfit and a shoe or boot that looks good. I mean a pink cowboy boot would be a turn off (for me at least). As for women wearing heels, many seem to feel heels are a fashion trap forced on them by male designers, they look for an excuse not to wear them. Others, like the women on this board, love them and would wear them no matter what. Some women can't wear them any more. I have had many women tell me they wish they could wear heels as high as mine, but their feet won't take it any more. That must be a real downer--.

[jo]

>> Schuh tried some higher mens heels and platform styles around 1999 <<

I missed seeing that. I only visit Schuh about once per year. There are none around here.

>> I wonder if we could find a few celebrities <<

I saw a picture of Jonafon Woss in a black leather skirt, hose, and heeled court shoes out with the missus a few years back.

[genebujold]

Yes, by all means try to look good, not outrageous. Wear an outfit and a shoe or boot that looks good. I mean a pink cowboy boot would be a turn off (for me at least).

Excellent!

By the way, FF, I cleaned up the pic you helped mod just a bit more:

If someone would ever make it in my size, this is a heel I'd dare to wear to work - under a pair of long black slacks, of course.

[sscotty727]

Some excellent points, Scotty! I particular like the fact that your sister-in-law shows no reaction, and for that I'm happy for you. I suspect she's either too polite, knows you too well to think anything of it, or is actually accepting (like most women on this board) of the idea of guys wearing heels.

I had to meet my wife at my inlaws on Friday (my sister-in-law still lives at home) and I wore my brown high heeled boots. This time while we were watching TV, I crossed my legs so she could clearly see my heels. I know for a fact she did see them and never commented. Today while I was out with my wife, I asked her if her sister said anything to her about them (I didn't say I was purposely showing them off) and she said her sister didn't tell her anything.

I also went out with my wife to run some errands (my sister-in-law is over watching the girls for us) and I wore the same heels in slightly higher jeans so you can see the heel more (enough you can tell they aren't mens). No one said anything, no negative reaction, I don't even think anyone looked. I am starting to really believe that it isn't society and women that are out to not allow men to wear the heels, but rather we are so nervous to wear them that we project that on to them. Now if I were wearing 5" pumps, sure I would have gotten stares and maybe some negative feedback, but 3 1/2" block heeled boots are perfectly fine for men to wear. I don't think any guy out there would get a negative reaction wearing them.

Right now we are watching TV (my sister-in-law is staying the night since it is late) and I have on sweatpants and my 4" slide mules. I know she can see me wearing them and she hasn't reacted at all.

FYI, no I am not trying to "hit" on her, but I figured I would use her to gage other women's reactions and so far she hasn't reacted at all.

Anyway, I say go for it guys, I think unless you wear something distinctly feminine, you should be ok wearing heels, even with family.

Good luck,

Scotty

[genebujold]

Hi, Scotty. Sounds like your sister-in-law is cool with it - as I think many women are. No one has ever given me flak for my wearing my 4-inch leather boots (similar to my avatar), so...

[Bubba136]

genebujold said that he tought:

you'll find about 60% to 70% ok with men wearing skirts, while less than a third of that number are ok with men wearing heels.

I would think the number would be way lower than that. However, without survey data to really prove one wat or another, I do believe male acceptance would be a lot higher for men in skirts than high heels.

[JeffB]

I would think the number would be way lower than that. However, without survey data to really prove one wat or another, I do believe male acceptance would be a lot higher for men in skirts than high heels.

Hmm! That's an interesting hypothesis, Bubba! Of course, I figure that would depend on the type of skirt and the environment it's worn in. I've seen teen boys out and about in floor length skirts and no one seems to bat an eyelash, but if it were a knee length skirt, that might be problematical. Shoes on the other hand are less obtrusive I think and therefore less open to scrutiny. But then, I could be wrong.

[genebujold]

Hmm! That's an interesting hypothesis, Bubba! Of course, I figure that would depend on the type of skirt and the environment it's worn in. I've seen teen boys out and about in floor length skirts and no one seems to bat an eyelash, but if it were a knee length skirt, that might be problematical. Shoes on the other hand are less obtrusive I think and therefore less open to scrutiny. But then, I could be wrong.

Although I'm in Vegas, where a lot of fashion styles come and go, I'm also in Vegas, where a lot of fashion styles come and go.

I've seen the run of the gamut with respect to heels and skirts on men, and the scuttlebut around here (which is either a reflection of or a precurser to New York fasions) is that while skirts are new with respect to the microcosm, their old with respection to men's fasion at large. Heels, on the other hand, are relatively new on guys, with the possible exception of a few very bold (interpret it as you wish) public figures between 1500 and 1890.

Naturally, Elton John counts, as well, although he's using fashion more as a sales pitch than as either a stepping stone or a display of personal reality.

[Firefox]

I think the figure is about 70-90% approval for heels on men with respect to woman, judging by my experience. That's if the heels are in keeping with the outfit and suit body shape etc. If a 20 stone woman with tree trunk type legs wears spindly stiletto sandals she is not going to meet with universal approval, maybe only 30% for the real heel type fans. If an 8 stone model figure woman wears the same she is still not going to get universal approval either. Some people will say "tarty", "unsafe", "unhealthy, etc etc. But perhaps she would rack up 90% approval. The point I'm trying to make is that gender is by no means the deciding factor. Aesthetic consideration is infinitely more important.

[new_look]

i agree fully. Some excellent points stated but i think the underlying point here is that at the end of the day, we all wish that acceptance would be easier and wish that the shoemakers produced heeled mens shoes etc etc we can go all day, but its just not how it is at the minute, which is what ive had to tell myself to start the courage to go out and just do it. For years and years i wished for the day to come where some pot heaaded designers for men would start making heeled mens stuff available, but unfortunatley that day is yet to come. I must say i also missed the Schuh 1999 trial of this. The things is, its not looking as if its gonna be coming anytime soon, and i enjoy my heels too much to wait forever for something that might not come. daz

[genebujold]

I think the figure is about 70-90% approval for heels on men with respect to woman, judging by my experience... ...The point I'm trying to make is that gender is by no means the deciding factor. Aesthetic consideration is infinitely more important.

Do you mean that 70-90% of men approve other men wearing heels, or 70% of all people approve men wearing heels while 90% approve women wearing heels? Or 70% of women approve men wearing heels and 90% of men approve women wearing heels?

I'm driving myself nuts trying to figure it out...!

Aesthetic consideration is indeed infinitely more important than gender! Most models (women) can get away with wearing just about any kind of heel, provided they're wearing the right accompanying clothing. The more rotund women are limited in terms of both clothing as well as the type/style of heels they can wear with that clothing.

By nature, men seem more limited in what they can fashionably get away with, both clothing-wise as well as heel-wise.

I'm not sure how much of that is simply because we tend to be larger and heavier-set for our height, and how much of that is simply my ingrained social mores. Could be in 20 years heels on women will be a no-no from the fashionable point of view. Who knows?

Daz: "Some excellent points stated but i think the underlying point here is that at the end of the day, we all wish that acceptance would be easier and wish that the shoemakers produced heeled mens shoes etc etc we can go all day, but its just not how it is at the minute, which is what ive had to tell myself to start the courage to go out and just do it."

Excellent and bravo!

[verngentleheels]

To me the real issue on shoes is size. Steve Madden has sold an ocean of very high heels that are masculine - being chuncky heels, wide toe-boxes, thick platforms - but the sizes gnerally stop at US 10. As I wear a 12 (and sometimes a 13 if the heel is extremely high) they are out of my reach. Thankfully women are getting bigger and heels larger than US 10 are getting a little easier to get.

[Slim]

The size comment brings up something I've been wondering about for some time. Just where did US womens sizes come from anyway? My guess is they are a continuation of the old colonial sizes which were apx two sizes smaller than english sizes. Military requirments may have caused US mens to follow english sizes. It may be the older high heeled boots and shoes were never made in what we call mens sizes today. It might be part of the problem with finding larger sizes and the reluctance to make them.

[genebujold]

For the final, if perhaps no quite so authoritative word on shoe size differences between the US and the UK (or between the UK and the US, if you're from that side of the pond), read no further!

http://www.sizefinder.com/where_did_sizes_come_from.htm

Ok, perhaps you can read just a bit further...

http://podiatry.curtin.edu.au/shoo.html

Or even...

http://www.oakland.k12.mi.us/resources/cfe/educator/business/2001-2002/B43.pdf

The thing I found most interesting from the last is the frequency chart. This measures the percentage of all shoes sold based upon the size. For example, size 9 is the most popular, with 14% of the take, while the three least popular sizes are size 7 (3%), size 11.5 (2%), and size 6.5 (1%).

Now, get this - this frequency table isn't for American women's sizes, but men's sizes!

Makes one wonder how old it is... Probably ok in the 1950's when the vast majority of the population were raised without vitamins. Now, however, it appears to more accurately represent women.

Consider the following graph I made (in Excel) from the stats:

[Slim]

Gene: I have seen most of this stuff b4. I must conclude that USW sizes are the old colonial sizes.

[genebujold]

Gene: I have seen most of this stuff b4. I must conclude that USW sizes are the old colonial sizes.

I believe your right - and that those sizes are slightly different (something like 3/16th of an inch or similarly small measure) than the English/UK system.

Then again, I didn't study the info, just skimmed it.

Guess What, Guys? Look what I found on Zappos when I searched under "men's sandals":

http://www.zappos.com/n/p/dp/1087556/c/60.html

I'm not sure if it's a mistake or if it's real. If it's real, it's a fairly pathetic attempt on the part of a high-price shoemaker to introduce a heel to men's shoes. Besides, they look like something only jacko would love to wear.

Could be their attempt at a unisex line, and someone decided the patent flash on the strap wasn't too out of place...

Come on! If they're going to introduce heels into MEN'S shoes, the least they can do is make 'em look like men's shoes, offer them in men's sizes, and make them with real heels, without, of course, trying to sissify them!

Something like this modified cuban heel would be more appropriate:

Or, for that matter, something like the verymasculine medium-heeled boots worn by women (and in sizes only for women):

...or this:

Come on, designers - we're not looking for a maxi-price token 1/4" bone, here! We're looking for stylish heels that fit!

Ok... now stepping off the soapbox... first the left foot... ...then the right...

[genebujold]

On another note, during the feminist fashion revolution, women didn't get designers to make men's clothing in women's sizes. Rather, they bought men's sizes and tailored them to fit (if necessary).

While that's easy going down in sizes (at least in the waists and inseams), it's next to impossible to adopt the same approach when increasing in size (size 9 to size 13 shoe).

Just ain't gonna work!

Fortunately, there are several manufacturers making truly fashionable women's heels in larger sizes. I think it's high time everyone (including the women who support us) on this board write the various retailers (Nordstroms, Zappos, Payless) thanking them for offering the larger sizes. While you're at it, please ask them to consider some true fashion revolutions for men, including skirts, higher heels, and more gender-neutral clothing.

Tell them many of their male customers buy items such as this little jewel:

I know it's far more feminine that I like to wear, but I've a full-length sand-tone skirt I wear around the house (and about three times out to dinner) that I think is made for these shoes.

For those of you who're not yet ready to wear heels, pick something available in larger sizes that looks like it could have been on any page in GQ:

Then go out and have some fun!

Bottom line - if they won't make fashionable men's shoes with heels, we'll just have to masculinize the women's heels by wearing them so much and so often and with so much confidence that the public at large will identify the more masculine-looking heels like the ones I've posted previously with men!

I'm beginning to sound a bit like a radical...