mlroseplant

After having done some research on this concept of "natural waist," it appears that there is quite a bit of disagreement on it, particularly if one is a shape where it's not necessarily obvious. I must confess to not really paying attention to such things until fairly recently, but I can't ever imagine wearing pants that fall above my belly button. I'd look like Steve Urkel.

11 hours ago, chesterx said:

 

Thinking about it, I want to have a talk with lady about heels the next time a woman compliments my heels. Seems it's always "I cant walk in them like you can". I think it is because women love how heels look, but not how they feel to wear them. Where I think, like most of us here, we actually like the idea of wearing heels just as much as we like the look of heels. I think that extra motivation makes a difference. If a woman has to run a few quick errands she most likely would choose flats or sneakers, whereas I see it as another opportunity to wear heels. Thus I choose to wear heels when most women don't. At least that is my theory...

 

Nice looking shoes! Glad you were able to wear them out somewhere.

I came to your exact conclusion independently. I might word it a little bit differently, but it's exactly the same thought. Most women like the idea of wearing heels, but they are not willing to make the effort to deal with the reality of wearing heels. The reality is, of course, that heels are not really designed in harmony with the human gait, and they require training and practice and active effort to wear all the time. I kind of look at it as a sport. It's not really a sport, of course, but it follows the same sort of logic, and the potential for improvement, but at the same time, injury, is always present.

19 hours ago, p1ng74 said:

If you are showing your belly button, your natural waist is literally naked, which only those with a nice looking waist and six pack can afford to do.  The rest of us seem better off wearing clothes at our waist, which actually seems to have worked well for Taylor over the years:

 

It doesn’t take a 10 inch zipper to get to the natural waist, the belly button.  My pants have 6-7” zippers on a 13” rise.  Working with the shape of a women’s bodysuit could be exceptionally tricky though, since the shorter women’s torsos will likely cause it to sit way above your waist.  

To lend some levity to this discussion, I evidently don't have a six pack. My younger son remarked a few months ago, "Daddy, you have a TWO-pack!" My abdominal muscles are still strong, but two thirds of them are covered up with a layer of fat. I cannot argue with the truth of his statement, it seems I do indeed have a two-pack. Having said that.  .  .

18 hours ago, pebblesf said:

Not that I am much of a judge, but neither outfit looks very good to me....

.  .  . I never thought of it before, but Taylor Swift is maybe not the best example to use, as I believe she doesn't have a typical body structure, especially compared to us guys. Her hips appear to be unusually tall, making her natural waist freakishly high, and I STILL think she'd look better with normal shorts. All I know is that MY natural waist is about an inch below my belly button, which by the way, I will never show you.

The only real way to settle this is for @KneeBooted to get some higher waisted jeans and take another nearly identical picture, and we can all sit at home and judge his appearance from afar, and conclude what looks better on him.

On 1/9/2020 at 1:02 AM, jeremy1986 said:

How did you manage the bathroom in the end, re the previous conversation ;-). Must be a bit of a bother to undo everything...?

He's so used to doing up onesies by now, I'm sure it's second nature! Thankfully diaper changing is now about 7 years in my past, so if I ever get a bodysuit, I'll have to relearn skill that I once had.

22 hours ago, p1ng74 said:

Honestly it seems to me that the low rise jeans are a big contributor to the visual effect of love handles.  You mentioned that you were trying to minimize it, so I wonder if some high rise trousers that match the waist height of the body suit will be more effective.  
 

I find wearing the higher waist height of form fitting women’s tops/dresses tricky, as men have longer torsos.  I have found ways to hide the mismatch through layering, like you did in the left picture.  But a top tucked into low rise trousers by itself seems most challenging.  

I must respectfully disagree with you about the high rise pants. I don't think what he is wearing is particularly low rise to begin with. The fly, when compared to the size of his hand, appears to have some length of zipper. All of the low rise pants I have have maybe 2 or 3 inches of zipper at the most. Furthermore, the jeans appear to have real pockets, which none of my low rise jean have. They either have no pockets, or pockets that you wouldn't want to put more than a few pence into.

If he were to go to an even higher rise jean, I really do not think it would have the desired effect, because exactly how high would they have to be? A 10 or 12 inch zipper? That would look very Taylor Swift-like. Have you ever seen her belly button? OK, that's all a matter of opinion, I understand that, but I really do not like that look in the least, and just like I blame Janet Jackson for ruining pop music, I blame Taylor Swift for ruining shorts with a ridiculously high waist, that then caught on with the general public.

I think the 'love handles' could be mostly managed by posture, and certainly by layering, as in the first picture. After contemplating a while, both of these pictures present an almost 'Dagwood Bumstead' posture, which I think emphasizes the love handles. If you're not of an age range or nationality where you immediately understand what I mean by a Dagwood Bumstead posture, Google several images of Dagwood Bumstead, and you'll come to understand what I mean.

Sorry, KneeBooted, it's very awkward and uncomfortable to refer to you in the third person on your own thread. No offense meant.

I have really been slacking lately. I haven't been exercising, and particularly I haven't been exercising my feet. This was driven home last Sunday when I had to attend all three church services because I was substituting in the band(s). I was at the church for five hours, much of the time standing. I don't often make a choice about my footwear based on things like this, but I sure should have this time. I chose to wear my Nine West Plantera loafer pumps, which have been a perennial favorite, but I have to admit that by the time I got home, I was ready to take those suckers off! In the past, they have been all day shoes with no problem, but I see I am no longer worthy of them. And yet, here I am, complaining to people on the internet about it, instead of doing something about it.

I was just thinking about you the other day, and BOOM! Here you are! Hope you've been well, buddy.

17 hours ago, kneehighs said:

Nice shoes.  From what I understand, Cole Haan is a good brand.  I've never been a consumer yet though.  Will you tell him they are manufactured for women?  

He won't care. This is the kid who wore his mother's snow boots to school when we were surprised to find that his boots from last year were much too small. I even considered getting him some "Harry Styles" height heels, of which there are MANY in that oxford style (no pun intended). But nah, now's not the time.

On 1/1/2020 at 7:01 PM, meganiwish said:

How fast was the dumpster going when it hit you?    It strikes me (or perhaps allides with me) that it should be easier to tell the two apart if they're not close.

Oh, not very. Probably only a couple of miles an hour. It's the momentum that gets you. Mass times velocity. Those 40 yard dumpsters are pretty massive. And green in this area. I hear Waste Management is run by the Mob. Don't know if it's true or not, but what the hell, we're living in a post-factual society anyhow.

Bakers was before my time as a heeler, but I definitely remember the stores, and I remember that they seemed to carry some stuff that was really high and fairly radical at the time. Does anybody remember when the metal heels were in style? I think Bakers sold a lot of those. I don't think the style lasted very long, probably on account of them being fairly difficult to walk in. Here is a screen shot from the movie "Single White Female," in which the metal heels were used as a murder weapon. I do in fact own one pair of Bakers. They are really high and steep for a mainstream shoe. Or what used to be a mainstream shoe.

A little bit off the subject of heels--I decided to get my kid, soon to turn 11, a decent pair of dress shoes. He is U.S. Men's size 6 now, which I have always found frustrating when it comes to buying shoes. I am size 7, and that's hard enough when it comes to buying a decent pair of shoes. I looked through the "big kids" section, and the selection was just terrible. Clunky, square-toed, plastic awfulness. Then I thought, "You idiot! Why not get him some used women's shoes, size 8 on ebay, just the same as you do for yourself?"

After just a few minutes of searching, I came up with these Cole Haan oxfords, which are much more attractive and much higher quality than any of the stuff they have for "big kids." They look like they were barely worn. For about the same price I would have paid for that junk. No wonder younger boys don't like to dress up anymore!

This is something I would probably be interested in trying. I would rather tuck in my shirts more often, but I have taken to wearing most all my shirts untucked these days, as I always seem to end up with a bunched-up wad of shirt at the back of my waist.

I bought these Miu Miu shearling clogs/mules (more about terminology in a minute) on a whim because they were quite inexpensive for Miu Mius, and because I've always wanted a pair of shearling clogs. Now that I actually HAVE a pair of shearling clogs, I'm not too sure about them, but more about THAT in a minute. As many of you already know, Miu Miu is a subsidiary of Prada, which is one of those ridiculously expensive designer brands. The name comes from the nickname of Prada's head designer Miuccia Prada, who founded the division in 1993. Unlike many designer brands, Miu Miu ain't all that much cheaper than Prada, but I managed to pick these up on ebay for a mere $35 plus shipping. They have obviously been worn quite a bit, but are in remarkable shape. They just need to be reheeled pretty soon.

I have an almost identical pair of Miu Miu mules already, only without the wool and being made of regular cow leather. I call them mules rather than clogs because in naked form, the shoe is cut quite low on the top of the foot compared to a traditional clog, high heeled or not. Therefore, I think of them as mules. However, with the addition of the wool, plus an extra little tongue to sew the wool to, the shoe comes up quite a bit higher on the foot, making it seem more like a clog. So I don't know what to call them. Perhaps "A typical Melrose Plant backless shoe with a very high heel." But that would be quite unwieldy, so perhaps we'll just stick with calling them clogs. They have a 5 inch wooden heel, which makes a delightful sound when you walk, with a 1 inch platform, for a near perfect balance between height and practicality.

They are size 38 1/2, which I was a little hesitant about, since my other Miu Miu mules are a full two sizes larger, at 40 1/2. The 40 1/2 is quite a bit big for me. I do not remember how or why I ended up buying 40 1/2 (I think it was mere oversight), but I deal with the extra room by stuffing, if you can believe this, dryer softener sheets in the toes. I have found that to be the best material for me for that purpose, after much experimentation. I knew I'd rather have a smaller size, but I was a little worried about going down two full sizes, especially with the wool. It turns out that 38 1/2 is barely perfect. I could probably take a 39 in this particular style, but my heels don't overhang, so it's OK. So let's talk about comfort. For some dumb reason, these two pairs of shoes (with the dryer sheets in the big pair, and nothing in the small pair) are incredibly comfortable. I have worn my big, naked pair many, many miles, and the small, furry pair doesn't feel significantly different. But why this should be so remains a mystery, as the ball of your foot rests on nothing but bare, hard wood, and yet I have never even thought about adding any padding. They just don't need it. I have other shoes that are much more padded which make my feet a lot more tired than these clogs do.

So now that I finally have my warm, furry clogs, I find that they look a little odd on my feet, not nearly as cute as I imagined. Of course, I haven't actually paired them with an outfit yet. Perhaps they will look cuter when worn with skinny jeans and a nice coat that matches them somewhat. I can tell you that they are significantly warmer with the shearling compared to the plain leather, so that's something. With basically 3 months of winter left to go, that could be important.

On 1/2/2020 at 7:55 AM, Chorlini said:

For me its a fetish. While I enjoy wearing heels myself I enjoy them more seeing them on women. It's part sexual fetish and part also because I like to wear them myself around the house whenever I feel like it. And I reckon wearing heels as a fetish applies to most men, because judging by the number of shops and brands that cater to fetish heels that also stock in large sizes it must be spread wider then we think. I mean, how else could we explain why 7" fetish heels still get made, the almost impossible to wear Scream series, and yet 5" to 6" single sole is sometimes impossible to find? The men here for whom wearing heels in daily life is probably but a small subsection of the number of men that probably have a fetish pair hidden in their closets. If all the men who have ever bought a pair of high heels were to come out male fashion would probably be changed forever over night. But contrary to most people here to these men its not about about fashion but fetish.

That's my take on the matter. Happy new year by the way!

I guess I should reassess my original post. I won't ever try to say that I don't find women in heels attractive, maybe to the point where I fixate on shoes and feet. However, as soon as I put them on myself, all of the sexual responses disappear, and are replaced by a general feeling of well-being, bordering on bliss at times. I've caught myself walking along more than once, happily clicking away, and wondering, "What could be better than this?" That's what I mean by "Not a fetish." Luckily for me, I don't have to worry about finding stuff in larger sizes, so I can buy "normal" fashion shoes easily. I would actually like to try some fetish height heels sometime, just to see if I can hack it, but I have not yet managed to convince myself to spend any money on something I know I'll never wear outside the house.

I made a reply to this conversation some 15 hours ago, but for whatever reason, it was censored, subject to the approval of a moderator. I have my suspicions about why, perhaps I used a certain word too many times in one post, but you guys know me, the reply contained nothing even approaching inappropriate. I shall wait this out to see what happens.

On 1/1/2020 at 7:35 AM, JeffB said:

An interesting chain of conversation that I find intriguing. Everyone here knows I wear women’s clothes top to bottom, openly and proudly as I evolved from a heeler to a fashion freestyler. Does that make me a crossdresser? Maybe, I’d say that depends on one’s own perspective, I don’t wear wigs, padded bras or makeup, and despite my infrequent dalliance with lipstick, I have no interest whatsoever in looking like a woman, all I care about are the clothes and shoes, and that’s more than enough for me.

As for the question of wearing sparkly, silver sandals, I’m of the opinion that shoes in colors like silver of gold should be saved for parties or similar social functions, not for more casual outings.

I'm not really fussed about anybody's definition of crossdressing. In fact, the thought never even entered my mind until Pierre brought it up, almost as a afterthought, really. I don't know what your thought processes are when you're deciding what barriers you're going to crash through next, but my thoughts basically go something like this: "I like to see women wearing x. I find x attractive. Why wouldn't I want to emulate the look for myself?" X, of course, stands in for whatever, be it high heels, bright colors, long nails, dangly earrings, etc.

I must respectfully disagree with you about the sparkly sandals. I guess it depends upon the exact outfit, but I for one like to see shiny gold and silver shoes in a more casual situation. They are also great for parties, too! I'm just not too sure about wearing them myself. And there's the other side of the coin. "I like to see women wearing x. I find x attractive. I would like to wear x, but I'd look completely ridiculous if I did so." Years ago, I tried on some of my ex-wife's high heels when she wasn't around (we wore basically the same size). I still remember looking in the mirror, wearing those heels, and thinking, "You look *%^&ing awful! You'd make an absolutely terrible looking woman." And I probably did look awful. It's taken me a number of years to even learn how to stand in heels without looking like a dork, much less walk in them. Not to mention the fact that, well, who knows what else I had on with those heels? Probably some dirty, baggy jeans and a ratty t-shirt.

So anyhow, those are the two sides of my feminine dressing consciousness.

3 hours ago, Pierre1961 said:

Hiding the heels is what I did for a long period. Now I realize that visible shoes draw less attention. But with block heels and all other clothes totally masculine. I wish i had the courage to wear stilettos boots  but didn’t take that decision yet 

@RonC I am also n old dog. Sometimes I wonder if wearing heels matches with an old face,despite of a slim body. 

So far I keep going. 

I believe I have expressed a concern about certain items of my wardrobe being for kids. Well, I think of them as kids, but I mean young people. For example, when do I have to give up the tiny shorts? I guess as long as my legs don't look all gnarled up like a prune, I'll keep wearing them. I don't think heels have an age limit, but they probably do have a physical limit. I have known too many people this year who have broken hips, and that time of my life when I might have to worry about such things is really not all that far away, in the grand scheme of things.

On 12/29/2019 at 10:10 AM, Cali said:

I get those two comments too. I respond by saying "Life too short for heels that hurt."  If they want to continue I will say that women buy heels because of their LOOK and what outfits they look good with, then worry about walking in them while I buy shoes that fit from the beginning because I will wear them for 12+ hours straight. Some times I might ask what the most important thing you look for in heels - the most common answer "how it look." I get accused of "buying heels like a man." 

I have wondered about this sometimes. I think you're largely right about women buying on looks only, but I can think of a couple of examples where this simply isn't true. One example is a friend of mine who wears heels regularly (probably every day), and she has a particular brand which she likes and finds comfortable. Nevertheless, she just simply can't hack standing and walking in them for more than a couple of hours. This was proven when a bunch of us took a trip to Chicago a couple of years ago. The only reason she wears heels every day is because her job allows her to sit most of the time. She has even mentioned giving up heels someday when she is older. I can't figure out why she has never developed the strength and endurance that I have, and that you have. We're talking about maybe a 3 1/2" heel, no platform.

On 12/29/2019 at 11:14 AM, p1ng74 said:

I’ve even heard guys say that a 1.5” heel on cowboy boots must be uncomfortable and difficult to walk in.  Yet that is closer to what podiatrists say is the ideal heel height.  Their judgment is often not based on any real personal experience, but rather what they are just used to seeing.  

I've heard that before as well, and I wonder how they come up with that. Being as we're really designed to walk barefoot, how are 1 1/2" heels the ideal height?

On 12/27/2019 at 9:18 AM, CAT said:

Sorel Lexie wedges.  My GF an I have several matching pairs too!! We both wear them  almost daily!!!  Here I am back at the hospital for more tests to get cleared for my long awaited knee replacements!   No one at the hospital said anything but there are always the looks !

Knee replacements? Wow! I hope all that goes OK. Do the doctors give you any static about wearing heels? I know my chiropractor sure did.

On 12/29/2019 at 9:01 AM, dagino said:

I have a fetish knee high boots with heels. When a woman puts on them, I'm ready. Each of us has a different attitude to women's shoes. I like the graceful shapes of boots. I don't like bare feet in sandals.

I suppose it depends upon your definition of "fetish." Do you focus on the boots only, or is it the total look that goes along with the boots? Do you feel the same when you're wearing such boots yourself? I honestly don't have anything against boots, I think they can look quite nice in the right context.

On 12/30/2019 at 3:31 AM, HappyinHeels said:

mlroseplant,

You wondered aloud the same thing on one of my visits to your place. I distinctly remember your then 9-year-old son saying "you do it because it gives you joy." He nailed it concisely and simply. It really is no more complicated than that. No wonder I like that kid he's got stuff figured ahead of time . In the meantime have a good New Year's Eve over there in Iowa no matter what heels you have on! HinH

Did he really say that? It sounds like something he would say, though I don't remember it specifically. Can you believe he will be 11 in a few short weeks? Happy New Year! I'll be staying at home this year.

There was a discussion on @chesterx's thread, brought about by @RonC, who asked a question about why do I feel that I can't wear silver, strappy, sparkly sandals, when many of the other shoes I wear on a regular basis are equally as outrageous in other ways? I am trying to drag the conversation over here, so as to not talk about myself too much on somebody else's thread. It probably won't work, but out of politeness, I'm going to try. See the last page of chesterx's thread "My Outings.  .  ." for more context.

There are many styles of shoes I now wear that I thought I never would when I started heeling back in 2012. Among them are anything with a stiletto heel, and any open-toed mule. Both of those are now a regular part of my wardrobe. I used to wear extra length pants all the time. I do not anymore. So why not sparkly silver sandals? My coloring would probably look better in gold, but that's beside the point. The answer is, I guess there is no good reason, it's just that I've got some sort of mental hangup about it. Most of my shoes are black or brown, and many of my sandals are tan. There are some notable exceptions, like my red BCBG mules, pictured recently above, my Nine West platform sandals (dusty rose), and my perennial favorite BCBG white beaded mules, which do have shiny gold trim.

At what point does one stop pushing the envelope and just continue to dress the way he does presently? Is wearing silver sparkly sandals "pushing the envelope" in any significant way it hasn't been pushed already? At what point does one start looking ridiculous? Has this line already been crossed (At this point, I don't think so, but others may have different opinions)? Does any of this really matter?

On 12/28/2019 at 1:21 PM, Cali said:

I wonder if allision could be used when someone hits parked cars?

What about a car hitting other stationary objects, like a trash dumpster (skip)? My only unintended contact (in a car). It was a green car, and a green dumpster, so you couldn't really tell, unless you looked very closely. The ex-wife was still mad as hell about it.

12 hours ago, RonC said:

miroseplant, I find that comment interesting.  Those sandals, while being a sparkly silver color, are a relatively common style.  Your choices, on the other hand, tend to be more toward the unusual side of things - i.e., ultra high heels, big platforms, etc., that one doesn't see often even on the ladies.  This is not meant to be critical at all, but I am curious to know why you felt that you "couldn't pull of those shoes" but have no problem with a pair of six inch heel mules with heavy platforms that rather stand out in a crowd?  Againm, please don't take as being critical in any way, just curious why one and not the other is in your comfort zone.

Hmm, now that you put it that way, I don't know why. Because they're so sparkly, I guess? I've kind of shied away from metallics for the same reason. And have I become a platform guy? I don't think of myself as a platform guy. Looking at my last dozen purchases, I guess I have become a platform guy, haven't I? It wasn't intentional, believe me. OK, nothing more than one inch from now on! Well, maybe 1 1/4" if everything else is just right.  .  .

I wouldn't worry, Ron, if you were being a little bit critical, but now is it I who is curious. Do you really think I would stand out less if I just wore plain classic pumps? I guess I never thought of my shoes as being all that unusual, just slightly out of date. Don't worry @chesterx. The hijack is only temporary.

On 12/26/2019 at 7:53 PM, HappyinHeels said:

Having a friend trail you to measure reaction to your heel wearing could be a diversion leading you to conclusions both positive and negative about what the friend saw and their implications for you. The fact is people have 5 senses and use them to observe. Cannot stop it. You should really focus on increasing your confidence and that is really what makes the difference! HinH

The fact is, I probably don't want to know. I think it's best that we can't read other people's minds--that would be disastrous! We were just talking about this very subject at work the other day, when a man we had never seen before started wandering around the job site. My first thought was, "Who the hell is this jackwagon?" Then I wondered aloud to my coworkers, "I wonder if other people think the same thing about us?" "Yeah, probably." I'm sure people think things in their heads that we really don't want to know. It would probably ruin your life if you knew.

22 hours ago, KneeBooted said:

My family and I are back in Louisville, KY for the holidays...

So I wore my new Sorel wedges out to dinner last night with my parents, my wife, and our kids. I paired them with my skinny jeans and a blue t-shirt, similar to the post on the previous page that was quoted at the top of this one.

We went to a local place that makes amazing burgers. I ended up in the seat at the table that showed off my choice of footwear quite easily, and I may have done that on purpose, lol.

While I got a couple of looks, no one said anything, and I was so preoccupied that I didn’t even see much else if anyone even reacted to it.

However, there was a couple at the bar that noticed and I assume kept talking about me in heels even as we were leaving. This couple was waking out behind us, and I heard a short bit from the guy... “I bet his feet are hurting. I’d be ok with it if...”

Number one, my feet weren’t hurting in the least, they’re wedges!

Number two, what situation would it have to be for that guy to be ok with another guy in heels? I assume he likely was going to say if I was gay, no kids, or something of the sort. Sigh, a sign I’m back in a conservative area lol.

It never ceases to amaze me how people think we must constantly walk around in misery. I've had several men over the years comment that they must be uncomfortable as hell, and it's usually something rather low-ish, too. Womens' comments are almost always along the lines of, "I wish I could wear those." I'm generalizing, of course, there have been quite a few true, unconditional compliments over the years, but I find those two categories to be the most common. What I really want to say is, "Yes, you can wear these, you just don't want to." I'm sure there are a certain percentage of people who can't wear heels, but most of them simply don't want to put in the time or the effort to get to the point where they can wear heels long term in comfort. Me? I'm still workin' on it!

10 hours ago, chesterx said:

Had a quick outing today. Went to Kohl's as they were having a sale on Gloria Vanderbilt jeans & I wanted to pick up a couple pairs to brighten up my jeans selection with some different colors. I also walked by a sparkly top I had to have, just in case I find some place to go for New Years Eve. Stopped off on the way home at Wings & More for dinner & some football, then back home. I chose to wear my  Jessica Simpson O'dorsey pumps that I wore earlier. They were too tight when I wore them then, but I really like how they look so I tried them on again & this time they were a lot more comfortable. I had them on about 3-4 hours & could have gone longer, so I am happy about that. I'm goint to make them part of my regular rotation. Hoping to fit in more heel opportunities between visits with my mother.

If there is one regret that I've had over the past 7 years, it's that I have been too quick to get rid of shoes that maybe don't fit quite right, but show promise. Some of my favorite shoes started off being rather tight, and there are some I got rid of right away that I wish I had back, now knowing the difference between "a little snug," and "always going to kill my feet." Obviously, you don't want the second one, but it's sometimes difficult to know the difference. May I suggest investing in a high heel shoe stretcher. I bought this one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00C32K12U/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

1 hour ago, at9 said:

Stealing is an interesting concept when you distinguish between bits and atoms. If you steal atoms (cars, books, wives etc) you deprive the previous owner of their use. If you steal bits this is done by copying (text, music, ideas etc) the original owner still has them. They may be of reduced value but the original owner can still play the music, read the document on a computer etc.

I'm no bible scholar but I don't think the concept of intellectual property is well covered.

If one continues reading past Deuteronomy chapter 22, it's addressed a few chapters later: "Thou shalt not sample classic rock 'n' roll for your hiphop record. It is an abomination."