Not response I was hoping for.

[wood&metal]

I was having a chat with a girl i've known for some years now, and we got on the subject of shoes. She's pretty open minded, so i thought maybe, just maybe, she would be ok with, or at the least intrigued by the idea of a guy in heels. Figuring on easing heels into the conversation, I proceeded to tell her how I've been looking for a pair of cowboy boots for dressy occasions, when sneakers just won't do... I did'nt say anything about heel height, or wether I was looking at men's or women's boots, so for all she knows I was talking specificaly about men's boots.. The first thing out of her mouth was, "oh god, don't get anything with a thin tall heel....it's just gay, and it makes guys walk like they have a stick up their butt".. Needless to say I was disappointed by her response, and somewhat shocked that she brought up heels before I did.. On a positive note.... Next weekend I'm going out of town to see a former girlfriend (and still best friend) who is very much like the sister i never had.. She knows about my thing for heels, and she has always been supportive. So, I think I will take this opprotunity to get out in the world in my "Rockstar" cowboy-er-girl boots.. A cool T-shirt, the right jeans should work perfectly..

[Guest]

theres that "gay" connection again, I'm gay & I do NOT walk like I have a stick up MY butt!, of all the most IMMATURE things to say anyways! I'm sorry folks, but gay is who you are SEXUALLY attracted to, NOT what the hell you WEAR!! there is NO, repeat NO connection to heels being gay in ANY way!! ask that "lady" if she EVER saw ANY man who wore heels that WAS gay! (& lady, I do NOT mean female impersonator either!) I mean just wearing all male clothes exept for the HEELS! there seems to be somewhat of a stereotypical misconception that a great many people have in this society, that is SO illogical it really boggles my mind!

[metalspikes]

The chain of (il)logic goes something like this:

• In modern western society, practical/utilitarian equates with masculine, and sensual/seductive/sexual equates with feminine. This was not always so in our history, and is not so in other cultures. So, dressing sensually/seductively is today considered entirely a "girl" thing.

• Perhaps the most prevalent misconception about women among men is that the primary (if not the only) reason women "dress up" is to attract a man. While it is probably true that any of us, male or female, think first of dressing "better" when we want to be attractive, the reverse assumption (that someone "dresses up" solely for the purpose of attracting the opposite sex) does not logically follow. I think most women would agree with me that their prime motivation for dressing up is simply because it feels good.

• Combine the idea that dressing sensually/seductively in flowing fabrics of various hues and textures, wearing heels, etc. is a "feminine" activity ordinarily reserved to women, with the assumption that women do it to attract men, and what's the logical conclusion? Why, that if a man does that, he is also doing it to attract a man, of course! Annoyingly enough, the very women who become incensed at the "male chauvinist" assumption that women dress up primarily for the purpose of attracting men, make the same assumption themselves when they brand a crossdresser or freestyler as "gay"-- I believe there is a word for that in our language.

This is why I've been interested in fashion freestyling since long before the name for this activity was coined, because of my hope that rigid gender roles and stereotypes for men may be deconstructed within my lifetime, that we may begin to shed this straitjacket and gain the freedom to express all of who we are, the same freedom that women currently enjoy.

[johnieheel]

I don't think wood&metal is talking about dressing up like a girl, sensuallity,being sudictive, sex or any of the above but simply wearing heels as an alternitive fashion preferance. The girl in question is not so open minded as he thought and simply made a remark that meant she was in dissagrement about men in heels as she still lives inside a box. We all know that most gay men don't even like heels and we're making to big of a deal out of this whole thing. Some of my best friends are gay although I disagree with it but to each his or her own and I don't bash them for who they are or what they are but just try to be a good friend to them and understand their feelings cause I know it's not easy being gay in sosiety as sometimes it's not easy for me to wear heels in public but NO ONE has ever labeled me as being gay because of my shoes. CHILL!

[metalspikes]

I don't think wood&metal is talking about dressing up like a girl, sensuallity,being sudictive, sex or any of the above but simply wearing heels as an alternitive fashion preferance.

I don't think he is either, which is why neither demoniaplatforms nor I addressed our remarks directly toward him, nor to that issue. I hear demoniaplatforms as expressing his frustration and irritation with a common sort of trash talk, and I wrote on the hidden assumptions and stereotypes upon which it is based.

The girl in question is not so open minded as he thought and simply made a remark that meant she was in dissagrement about men in heels as she still lives inside a box.

And in "simply making [her] remark," used the name of a minority group as an epithet, perpetuating a harmful stereotype. Neither do I appreciate a bad deal being called a "gyp" (Gypsies), someone who reneges on a gift or promise being called an "Indian-giver" (we Europeans were much more noteworthy for that maneuver than any American Indians), nor the person who winds up on the wrong end of a well negotiated ("hard") bargain complaining that s/he was "Jewed down." It gets rather more personal when you happen to belong to a group that is constantly subjected to these sorts of stereotypes, and even more personal still when you've been subjected to their consequences.

We all know that most gay men don't even like heels

Which particular group of people are you including in that "we," for all of whom you speak on the state of their knowledge? I know that, and it sounds like you do, too; who else did you have in mind? Obviously, some people don't.

and we're making to big of a deal out of this whole thing.

You may feel that it is out of proportion, others may not. We all have our hot topics, they're just different for each of us. It sounds like this conversation has hit one of your "hot buttons."

Some of my best friends are gay although I disagree with it but to each his or her own and I don't bash them for who they are or what they are but just try to be a good friend to them and understand their feelings cause I know it's not easy being gay in sosiety as sometimes it's not easy for me to wear heels in public

So you can identify, because you also want acceptance for your unconventional lifestyle choices. Unfortunately, the only time that most people can "get" each other or understand where others are "coming from" is to be in similar circumstances.

However, (dis)agreeing with it makes about as much sense as (dis)agreeing with blue eyes or a stature of only 5'4"-- being gay (whether one acts on it or represses it) is not a fashion choice like wearing heels. Your response sounds defensive to me; it sounds as though you are refuting these comments as though they were made directly to you (which they weren't). It sounds like we've hit a nerve.

Since you have been direct and outspoken, I shall follow in kind:

but NO ONE has ever labeled me as being gay because of my shoes.

Not to your face, at any rate, I'm willing to bet. I don't know what your experiences growing up have been, nor do I know what your temperament on the inside is. From what I've seen of your photos, though, on the outside you are one scary looking dude! I think you could go out dressed as I am in my Avatar, just as Neil Cargile does, and get no more grief for it than he gets.

The most common error of human thinking of which I know is how we take our experiences so for granted that we assume that everyone else experiences the same as what we do. There are three photos of me in the members' section of the gallery-- I'm so not scary looking (nor a "pretty boy," nor anything else), that one of the members here hung a comment on one of my photos to tell me how Ugly he thought I was. The only respect I get in my life is when I open my mouth, and only among people who might actually give a flying fig for what I've got to say. While from your appearance, I tend to suspect that you've lived your life at the top of the food chain, I can tell you that I've lived most of mine as a prey and a flight animal-- I do believe that my special relationship with horses comes in part from the fact that we so well understand each other. Life looks different from the bottom, when you've constantly had the crap beat out of you growing up.

So, no one's ever labeled you as "gay" for wearing heels? In my life, getting called something nasty is the least of my worries. Perhaps you can understand why I might respond to nasty stereotypes differently than you do-- I (and other members of my family) have already been beaten up over them!

CHILL!

Why, thank you! for supporting our unconventional mode of self-expression in wearing heels, and issuing unsolicited directives to stifle others with which you do not agree. While I appreciate your suggestion, I feel I've a right to my feelings and experiences. Thank goodness for the 'net, where exercising my freedom to express them is not likely to result in a consequence of going home with a barstool wrapped around my head.

[ShockQueen]

Sadly, it's going to take a long time to disassociate "heels" from "gay", because our society (such as it is) has lumped both into the same heap and treated it as such. I know for a fact that very VERY few of my gay friends EVER wear heels - the rest just wear regular clothes (although some are snappier dressers than others - but that you get anywhere). I like the term "fashion freestyler" or just "freestyler" - it's more of a free-wheeling and free-thinking approach to the whole fashion thing. But walking like I have a stick up my butt? That is soooooooooo lame, coming from the girl. I've seen guys walk in heels VERY well, so I think her notion is misplaced.

[metalspikes]

I like the term "fashion freestyler" or just "freestyler" - it's more of a free-wheeling and free-thinking approach to the whole fashion thing.

I like it too, but because to me it represents considerable progress in how we are thinking about gender roles. The fact is, our social institutions have not kept pace with the changes that technology has brought to our society. Where is the relevance of traditional gender-oriented division of labor in a post-industrial society of button-pushers where upper body strength scarcely matters for anything practical any more, and where women have reproductive freedom that is nearly equal to that of men (and don't look now, but it is only a matter of time before the artificial uterus forcast by Aldous Huxley and Lois McMaster Bujold will become reality)?

[thedesigner]

u hav my sympathy, my ex (hooray) didnt like me in flats let alone heels, probly cos she coudnt do heels anyway. My soulmate lurves me in heels and encourages me. Like all the messages above, the gay thing is bollox, like they say its who u fancy. I do earrings and ankle chain and my soulmate luvs me for the bollox to be me - not a clone. Moral of the story - girlfriend v new girlfriend and heels. they are out there!

[wood&metal]

Guys.. My motto is: If it's your thing and it makes you happy, buy all means do your thing.. Be it shoes, sexual orientation, collecting stamps, whatever it is.. Go for it. I most definately share your frustration though.. Dealing with the ridicule is the reason that keeps me from wearing anything with a heel in public.. What is worse is that in some ways it makes me feel like I'm a hypocrite that can't live up to my own motto...Not a good feeling. Ive been thinking about my friends comment most of the day, and about how disappointed I am with her, knowing her as I do.. Oh well.. One of these days she may get the shock of her life when I show up sporting a pair of boots with 3 inch heels tucked up under my jeans.....or maybe 4 inch heels......maybe 5 inch, just for shock value....

[thedesigner]

honestly, thanxx, u value wots important to you, but be open with you life as frustration builds into dislike and resentment. You only get one chance at life so you be you and say hello! its me! Be confident, u are original, and a lot of people got where they are by being different!! Gd luck!

[high_55]

i agree mostly with you all, i happen to live in a country a little bit more judgemental, (couldn't think of any other word), most of us have gone through a personal excersise of questions and answers about ourselves, trying to understand why we love heels, or any particular garment, or sexual orientation, but some people never ask themselves those kind of questions, because it's easier living with your eyes shut, saying that everything is black or white, there are no in betweens, and so having to ask themselves to what shade of gray they belong to. But that requires to think and accept that you have to make changes in your life, and they're lazy and it's easier to say it's just wrong. hope you may follow the general concept.

[metalspikes]

I most definately share your frustration though.. Dealing with the ridicule is the reason that keeps me from wearing anything with a heel in public.. What is worse is that in some ways it makes me feel like I'm a hypocrite that can't live up to my own motto...Not a good feeling.

Please don't be so hard on yourself. Ridicule as a form of social control is a powerful thing with its implied threat of ejection and isolation. We are social creatures, most of us, and not "designed" to go it entirely alone. Deep down in the primitive portions of our brain, the so-called "lizard brain," ejection and isolation equates to a threat to our survival. It takes work, and time, to overcome with your reasoning brain what are actually survival impulses. So go easy with yourself, and you will find that you get the job done sooner and with less wear and tear.

Ive been thinking about my friends comment most of the day, and about how disappointed I am with her, knowing her as I do..

It sounds as though you learned something new about her that you didn't know before, a "blind spot" in an otherwise seemingly tolerant and open person. Of course that's disappointing. We all have them, though-- it is unfortunately our most common way of dealing with that which threatens us. "Denial," so the expression goes, "it's not a river in Egypt."

Oh well.. One of these days she may get the shock of her life when I show up sporting a pair of boots with 3 inch heels tucked up under my jeans.....or maybe 4 inch heels......maybe 5 inch, just for shock value....

That sounds like a very good place to start. Hopefully your friendship is of sufficient value to her that she will be motivated to re-examine her assumptions. You must be prepared, though, for the possibility that she may pull up stakes on you and walk away. One has to wonder how deep a friendship you actually have with someone who turns out to be unable to accept an essential part of who you are. She needs to know that it is part of whatever it is she sees in you that she appreciates and admires. It is no fun being treated like a roast beef by someone who wants to slice off the "best" bits for themselves and leave the rest behind-- I've been there and know what it feels like, and it most certainly doesn't feel like friendship.

[BobHH]

I don't know for sure, but it sounds like someone who expresses a strong opinion/condemnation without consideration for others feelings. Talking when they should keep quiet and listen. A put down without waiting to find out what the other person is thinking or leading to. Not a good sign. Danger signal!

[johnieheel]

I don't think he is either, which is why neither demoniaplatforms nor I addressed our remarks directly toward him, nor to that issue. I hear demoniaplatforms as expressing his frustration and irritation with a common sort of trash talk, and I wrote on the hidden assumptions and stereotypes upon which it is based.

And in "simply making [her] remark," used the name of a minority group as an epithet, perpetuating a harmful stereotype. Neither do I appreciate a bad deal being called a "gyp" (Gypsies), someone who reneges on a gift or promise being called an "Indian-giver" (we Europeans were much more noteworthy for that maneuver than any American Indians), nor the person who winds up on the wrong end of a well negotiated ("hard") bargain complaining that s/he was "Jewed down." It gets rather more personal when you happen to belong to a group that is constantly subjected to these sorts of stereotypes, and even more personal still when you've been subjected to their consequences.

Which particular group of people are you including in that "we," for all of whom you speak on the state of their knowledge? I know that, and it sounds like you do, too; who else did you have in mind? Obviously, some people don't.

You may feel that it is out of proportion, others may not. We all have our hot topics, they're just different for each of us. It sounds like this conversation has hit one of your "hot buttons."

So you can identify, because you also want acceptance for your unconventional lifestyle choices. Unfortunately, the only time that most people can "get" each other or understand where others are "coming from" is to be in similar circumstances.

However, (dis)agreeing with it makes about as much sense as (dis)agreeing with blue eyes or a stature of only 5'4"-- being gay (whether one acts on it or represses it) is not a fashion choice like wearing heels. Your response sounds defensive to me; it sounds as though you are refuting these comments as though they were made directly to you (which they weren't). It sounds like we've hit a nerve.

Since you have been direct and outspoken, I shall follow in kind:

Not to your face, at any rate, I'm willing to bet. I don't know what your experiences growing up have been, nor do I know what your temperament on the inside is. From what I've seen of your photos, though, on the outside you are one scary looking dude! I think you could go out dressed as I am in my Avatar, just as Neil Cargile does, and get no more grief for it than he gets.

The most common error of human thinking of which I know is how we take our experiences so for granted that we assume that everyone else experiences the same as what we do. There are three photos of me in the members' section of the gallery-- I'm so not scary looking (nor a "pretty boy," nor anything else), that one of the members here hung a comment on one of my photos to tell me how Ugly he thought I was. The only respect I get in my life is when I open my mouth, and only among people who might actually give a flying fig for what I've got to say. While from your appearance, I tend to suspect that you've lived your life at the top of the food chain, I can tell you that I've lived most of mine as a prey and a flight animal-- I do believe that my special relationship with horses comes in part from the fact that we so well understand each other. Life looks different from the bottom, when you've constantly had the crap beat out of you growing up.

So, no one's ever labeled you as "gay" for wearing heels? In my life, getting called something nasty is the least of my worries. Perhaps you can understand why I might respond to nasty stereotypes differently than you do-- I (and other members of my family) have already been beaten up over them!

Why, thank you! for supporting our unconventional mode of self-expression in wearing heels, and issuing unsolicited directives to stifle others with which you do not agree. While I appreciate your suggestion, I feel I've a right to my feelings and experiences. Thank goodness for the 'net, where exercising my freedom to express them is not likely to result in a consequence of going home with a barstool wrapped around my head.

Well I guess I screwed that all up. That meaning my reply to wood&metal. Didn't mean to hit a nurve. You really know how to analyse and pick things apart. Thanks for letting me know I'm a scarry looking dude. That was my goal in life.(NOT). Just one more thing or two, I bled and swet for everything I have and did not come from the top of the food chain and there is nothing wrong inside me and I am, ok 3, a very humble, forgiving, and giving person. Now see what you come up with in all that. Sorry to affend you. Johnieheel

[BobHH]

I always thought the term "Indian giver" referred to the white government who gave what they thought was worthless to the American Indians, then took it back when it turned out to be valuable.

[metalspikes]

I always thought the term "Indian giver" referred to the white government who gave what they thought was worthless to the American Indians, then took it back when it turned out to be valuable.

Good question! I found some useful results in this Google search.