Guns? Hunting? or ?

[Trolldeg]

I guess you'd have to be american to believe in the equation 'more guns = less crime".

[terayon]

Anagram....glocks are 9mm, not .22...but ur right about everything else guns will ALWAYS exist, and if you take them away from the good people, the only people who will have them are the pigs and the crooks, and more often then not, the pigs are crooks...so that does nothing to help the common citizen. if there is no deterant, crime will run rampant, if someone robs you and is holding a loaded MP5-K to your temple, and you have nothing, there is nothing you can do...but if theres a chance you have a gun on you, that person may think twice before trying to rip you off...the last thing a criminal wants is to get shot...he not only gets injured, but i doubt he will be running anywhere with a bullet hole through his kneecap, in which case hes going to die from bleeding to death, or wish he was dead when hes in jail getting ass raped by his new "girlfriend" a 350pound biker named bubba...

[Trolldeg]

How come then, that the US, with it's liberal gun legislation, has more problems with crime than us here in Sweden, with our stricter rules? The majority of guns accuired for family protection actually end up hurting someone in the family.

[terayon]

theres quite a good reason that would show itself if you used some common sense statistics taken from the CIA world factbook Sweden - Population: 8,875,053 (July 2001 est.) United States - Population: 278,058,881 (July 2001 est.) the population of the US is over 30 times larger than that of sweden, naturally more people = more crime

[Trolldeg]

so if the population is big enough, it's natural that kids take guns to school and blow away their peers?

[Dr. Shoe]

I agree, only today I we hear of a 3 year old kid taking a gun to kindergarten! Thank god it wasn't loaded. It is notoriously difficult to explain to a three year old that Daddy's gun is not a toy. Also, kids all think that if you shoot someone, they'll get up again just like in cartoons. If this is not a good reason for gun control I don't know what is!

[Dr. Shoe]

On 2002-05-30 03:51, terayon wrote:

marked for life?

hahaha

unless your planning on killing an assasin from the japanese mafia i wouldnt worry about "being marked"

99% of the people who rob houses and steal cars are amateur theives who do it to support their famillies or a drug habit or something else...point is, they do it for the money, they are not professionals who make a MASSIVE profit like the mob does, if they were, they wouldnt need to do it themselves, they could get others to do their dirty work

How do you know the difference? Do you ask them or do you "blow them away" before they have the chance to kill you?

Do you kill the poor little innocent who is just trying to feed his family without any sort of remorse? Or you kill someone who really needs your help to kick his drug habit? What a tragic society you live in!

Ok let's look at a scenario. Someone is in your house at 3am you reach up above your bed and get your colt .45 from the special holster above your head and with gleaming eyes you jump out of bed. You silently go downstairs carefully avoiding the step you loosened so it would creak. You sneak into the dining room to see (by the street light) someone rifling your writing desk. Without giving any warning, you shoot the person dead.

You turn on the light and find it is your next door neighbour, you don't know his name but you occasionally waved as you were getting into your dodge truck.

Three days later, his distraught wife reveals that he hadn't worked for two years and their three year old child was suffering from malnutrition and this was the very first time he had even considered burglary. He was desparate and because you had never taken the time to get to know your neighbour and maybe help find him a job with your company he is now dead at the age of 25.

You turn on the light and find that he was a Hell's Angel and two other members of his chapter are also in the room both with guns pointing at your head. They make you watch while they take turns at your wife and thirteen year old daughter before killing the three of you.

You turn on the light to find that it is your thirteen year old daughter looking for a pen because she has been up all night revising for an exam and hers has run out.

Three tragic outcomes that ruin so many lives. Belongings can be replaced, lives cannot. I hate to say it but I cannot see any justification for keeping any sort of firearm. Having seen exactly what guns can and will do to human flesh (The Falklands, The Gulf and Bosnia) you do not drill a neat little hole in their forehead, you take the whole head off, you do not make a neat little hole in their shoulder, you take the whole arm off. This is not the movies.

[Dr. Shoe]

The best way to protect your home is to get a good alarm system with the money you would have spent on a gun.

[terayon]

if you shoot someone without approaching them you are an idiot and you would go to jail for that, then again..unfortunate or not, the bastard shouldnt have broken into your house anyway.... The Hells Angels have gotten a lot of publicity, but what you must understand is they are not petty thugs, jacketed members are proffesionals, they have contacts in the DOJ and countless police forces, they arent cold blooded murderers, they would kill only out of necessity, going to jail for murder is not a hassle they want..why would they when they could be making millions, getting free bikes, drugs and girls...why would they want to go to jail? If they kill someone, they get some unjacketed member to do it, and it would be by no means random....despite the fact that they ride on bikes and look like ameteurs, the hells angels are a very complex and sophisticated crime organization... and the person who said that kids bring guns to school and shoot their friends....that has probably happened under 20 times in the US, resulting in maybe 30-40 deaths...which is a terrible thing, but think of how many people have been killed by getting stabbed or beaten, the numbers are FAR FAR greater than those killed by guns in school....and school shootings are not restricted to the US, just last month there was one in germany, they have happened all across the world..

[terayon]

also...dr. shoe...how could someone not work for 2 years?! if in 2 years you cannot find a job, you are a damn loser....you could ALWAYS get a job at some shitty fastfood restaurant, they are practically always hiring, its minimum wage, but its better than nothing...and suppose they somehow didnt work for 2 years, how could they afford a house? i think the children and entire familly would have starved to death long ago

[Firefox]

...they arent cold blooded murderers, they would kill only out of necessity...

That in my opinion is a very sad comment.

There's no justification to kill, ever. I know of countless cases where many killings take place in gang warfare, and Hells Angels have been no exception. The killings were over drugs or someone getting in on their patch. Is that "necessity" Terayon. Please get your facts straight.

Unfortunately the many abusers of guns tarnish the image of people who have a genuine interest. Genuine interest is in collection, history, statistics, models, and shooting at inanimate targets. Nothing else.

[terayon]

necessity being killing a witness who would testify against them, or if someone was found to be a narc.....killing is killing, and is always a terrible thing, dont get me wrong on that...but theres a big difference between killing someone for a purpose than shooting up random people in the streets....they are both wrong, but one could be justified to have had a reason...doesnt make it right though

[Firefox]

...theres a big difference between killing someone for a purpose than shooting up random people in the streets...

There's no difference actually, they are both indisputably morally wrong, and the sooner the gun happy pricks, who do either, get that into their fucking thick skulls the better.

[hoverfly]

Yikes!!!!!!! Gone for the whole day and it looks like WW III broke out!!! Why are kids killing in schools here in the U.S.? Simple it's not the gun that has caused the problems it is the social structure that has failed here in the U.S. Kids use the gun to vent their anger. Unless somebody catches it before it happens it could be just a fist fight or a bomb that is the end result. Europe and many other countries medical system are greatly based on a socialism system. The U.S. medical system is based on making money. We shell more out of pocket. Though other countries have people pay higher taxes they at least have medical severances available to all. The U.S. dose not. No body wants to spend the money to deal with the social issues before the breaking point. Also family and social values differ greatly between the two continents. One country (s) is more family oriented and has stronger social values, the other does not. The one that dose not, has based to much of it's social structure on how much money you can make. Which one do you think you are? As for liberal gun laws here in the U.S.? Gun laws are not really that Liberal here in the U.S. The problem is nobody wants to spend the money to enforce the laws that are all ready on the books. A lot of our problems can be solve if somebody opens up their purse strings. Even if you remove the guns form the hands of the American Citizen, we still have the problem with the social issues to deal with. So don't blame the gun, blame your self. ____________ Hello, my name is Hoverfly. I am a high heel addict…. Weeeeeeeeeee!!! <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hoverfly on 2002-05-31 01:46 ]</font>

[hoverfly]

On 2002-05-30 21:40, Dr. Shoe wrote:

The best way to protect your home is to get a good alarm system with the money you would have spent on a gun.

Security systems are not as reliable as a gun. Second if the alarm goes off but the Police are unable to come right away, what could you do if you are head to head with a potential killer when you are not allowed to have a gun?

[hoverfly]

On 2002-05-30 21:36, Dr. Shoe wrote:

How do you know the difference? Do you ask them or do you "blow them away" before they have the chance to kill you?

Do you kill the poor little innocent who is just trying to feed his family without any sort of remorse? Or you kill someone who really needs your help to kick his drug habit? What a tragic society you live in!

Ok let's look at a scenario. Someone is in your house at 3am you reach up above your bed and get your colt .45 from the special holster above your head and with gleaming eyes you jump out of bed. You silently go downstairs carefully avoiding the step you loosened so it would creak. You sneak into the dining room to see (by the street light) someone rifling your writing desk. Without giving any warning, you shoot the person dead.

You turn on the light and find it is your next door neighbour, you don't know his name but you occasionally waved as you were getting into your dodge truck.

Three days later, his distraught wife reveals that he hadn't worked for two years and their three year old child was suffering from malnutrition and this was the very first time he had even considered burglary. He was desparate and because you had never taken the time to get to know your neighbour and maybe help find him a job with your company he is now dead at the age of 25.

You turn on the light and find that he was a Hell's Angel and two other members of his chapter are also in the room both with guns pointing at your head. They make you watch while they take turns at your wife and thirteen year old daughter before killing the three of you.

You turn on the light to find that it is your thirteen year old daughter looking for a pen because she has been up all night revising for an exam and hers has run out.

Three tragic outcomes that ruin so many lives. Belongings can be replaced, lives cannot. I hate to say it but I cannot see any justification for keeping any sort of firearm. Having seen exactly what guns can and will do to human flesh (The Falklands, The Gulf and Bosnia) you do not drill a neat little hole in their forehead, you take the whole head off, you do not make a neat little hole in their shoulder, you take the whole arm off. This is not the movies.

In theory what happened on the first scenario here both parties were wrong how they handled this incident. But untimely the bottom line is the intruder had no business to be in some ones home uninvited and unannounced. Breaking into some ones home you just don't do that. This is suppose to be a place of safety for the home owner and family. The home owner by merely using animal instincts defended him self. But lets not forget the animal instincts of a farther who was trying to feed his children as well even though he was wrong.

Now this part is for the first and third scenario in the other fault. Shooting before really identifying the intruder as a serious threat to the home owner. This is were the gun owner should halved some training in handling a situation like this. In a lot of cases just treating to the fact that you have a gun will make up the intruder's mind really fast, he/she will either flee, identify them selves, or attack. I bet the first two are the most preferred choice for either side.

Now as for the Hell Angles scenario. Forget the Hell's Angles this is were any one can do this. This is were rape and murder is committed. It's just wrong, period, and it can happen just as easily with out a gun. This is were you should halved had a gun and go down fighting because you future was all ready planed by them. Forget about the security system argument. There is enough time for you to become hostage before the cops come along. What are the cops are going to do even if the intruders did not have any guns? The intruders have your life in their hands, a knife or just bare hands will end it just as fast as a gun.

[terayon]

besides....90% of alarm systems are a deterant only...and if they are linked to police it can take LONG time for them to actually arrive, i remember when our familly was staying in Barbados like 4 years ago, we stayed with a friend of my dads who was VERY wealthy and had a huge mansion by the beach, one time when we were out, as we came back, the owner had left and turned the alarm system on without telling us, we didnt know the password...so we opened the door and it started screaming "Intruder, Intruder, Sector 5!" repeating it over, saying the police were on their way....we had to wait 3 hours like that before the owner came back and shut the alarm off, after nearly 5 hours had passed a technician from the alarm company came by and asked if everything was alright....5 hours! and it wasnt a cheap system either...was very expensive...if something is a deterant, only..it is rather useless if someone challenges it

[Trolldeg]

You would have to be very stupid to believe such a thing.

Of course it isn't natural. THEY'RE FUCKING CRIMINALS!

Criminals don't obey the law. Get it??

is everything really black or white in the US?

..and if you're going to quote me, don't take the quote out of context.

[Trolldeg]

Simple it's not the gun that has caused the problems it is the social structure that has failed here in the U.S. Kids use the gun to vent their anger.

well, if it wasn't so easy to get hold of a gun in the first place, maybe these outbrakes of teenage angst wouldn't have so many fatal results?

[azraelle]

From a cold-blooded 12th century "humanitarian" perspective, most people, if they thought about it, would rather get shot and die relatively quickly, than get stabbed repeatedly with a pocket knife, switchblade, tanto, kitchen steak knife (with the serrated edges) or Bowie knife, and then linger on for hours before they died. See for example a scene from "The Long Kiss Goodnight". I defy any of you living in the old world to figure out a way to get rid of all the knives! You don't seem to get it. Anybody angry enough at their world to start blasting away with a gun will do the same with a knife or (God forbid) a sword, which weapons are as freely available in this country to someone who wants one as mail-order hi-heels, and in many cases a DAMN site cheaper! Even after 9/11, if you know where to look, in the west at least, it's not that hard to find a "five-finger discount" on unused abandoned blasting caps, which if used properly, equal a 1/4 stick of dynamite; formulas and instrux are still available on some of the non-US phreak websites for making your own Semtex, PETN (the usual hi-explosive in DetCord), and several others--any hi-school kid with determination could do it--Hell I knew how to do it when I was 12 after consulting several pertinent books from the public library (way back in 1964)! Or if the kid was REALLY SICK, tossing the contents of a pitcher of Parathion into a crowd would kill and/or maim for life nearly everyone it came in contact with that didn't receive the medical antidote (atropine) within 1 hour, because it is absorbed thru the skin in 7 sec or less. And he/she could disappear in said crowd after splashing everyone, because to the crowd it would seem no more inocuous than salad oil, at least for a few minutes.

Getting rid of the weapons does as much good as "straightening the deck chairs on the Titanic" would have done. There IS NO QUICK FIX! In fact, once the family values have disappeared, reference the fall of the Roman Empire, it may be fatally impossible to fix things--we may, in fact, just be postponing the inevitable.

And if the inevitable IS a slow slide into anarchy, I for one, would rather have a gun, as well as a crossbow, blowgun, professional slingshot, and any other "distance" weapons I could get my hands on, AND a few knives & swords. It would also be preferable to be able to acquire them in advance, rather than risking life and limb stealing them from someone else with more foresight than me.

Finally, for those who don't believe that the (possible) posession of guns is a deterrent, when the first easily obtainable concealed weapons law went into effect a few years ago (in Florida) the violent crime rate (which includes armed robberies, murders, and forcible rapes) went down by one half within 2-years of it going into effect. A not so humorous corollary was noted a little later, though--The violent crime rate against persons in RENTAL CARS went way up. Apparently the armed criminals reasoned that it was nearly a sure bet that people in rental cars were probably from out-of-state, and therefore would NOT BE ARMED! Criminals are personally interested in THEIR pursuit of Life, Liberty, and Happiness, So why shouldn't the non-criminal have the same opportunity?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: azraelle on 2002-05-31 10:49 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: azraelle on 2002-05-31 10:59 ]</font>

[Trolldeg]

1. With a knife, you have to get close to people. 2. It's easier to run away from person with a knife.

[hoverfly]

It may be easier to run away form a knife but still, your life is in great danger. You still need to defend your self. If this happened in your home it my not be so easy to run do to the fact that the one with a knife has the exit out blocked. Second some people can't run away even it's just a knife because of the fear factor. It's fear that what makes any kind of weapon so effective.

[Trolldeg]

So what Azraelle is saying is; it's no use to have laws against weapons, because if a person wants to kill, he will kill. Then we might aswell have no laws against drugs, because if a person wants to take drugs, he will take drugs. And what about people who get killed by accident with guns purchased for family protection? Would they still find a way to kill themselves even if gun control was enforced?

[Dr. Shoe]

On 2002-05-30 22:20, terayon wrote:

and the person who said that kids bring guns to school and shoot their friends....that has probably happened under 20 times in the US, resulting in maybe 30-40 deaths...which is a terrible thing, but think of how many people have been killed by getting stabbed or beaten, the numbers are FAR FAR greater than those killed by guns in school....and school shootings are not restricted to the US, just last month there was one in germany, they have happened all across the world..

Don't you think that with gun control those 30-40 deaths would never have happen? 30-40 families would not have had their lives wrecked (assuming 3 people per family average that's 90-120 lives). How many parents have lost their only child to an unregulated gun? It's not just the person who is shot who is the victim. Yes, school shootings do happen elsewhere. Dunblaine was the incident that led to a ban of guns in the UK and as for the case in germany; it was not an existing pupil and he only shot three people whom he had come for. Dunblaine was a nutter with no connection to the school at all, it seems that only in the US do students go to school armed.

In my three scenarios, I was only using examples. The unemployed man may have been a truck driver who lost his licence (license?) or a victim of a debilitating disease like AIDs. I was just using the HAs as an example but read any violent gang. And as for the third scenario, there are so many cases of parents accidently shooting their kids it doesn't even make the news!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dr. Shoe on 2002-06-01 00:06 ]</font>

[azraelle]

Regarding drugs, many notable people have come out in favor of legalizing drugs--I believe William F. Buckley's major fear was that the current "war on drugs" has created a "police state" in the US--more than half of those currently behind bars are there for drug-related offenses. And yes, I do believe that enacting laws to try to compel people not to do what they WILL do anyway is LUDICROUS! Regards running away from knife-wielding perps, there seems to be even more terror in modern minds when threatened with a knife than a gun--the 9/11 hijackers used plastic knives and razorblades to take over the aircraft; which can be foiled with a pi;llow or a blanket, both of which are readily available on all airlines. And yet the passengers on three of the four planes just sat there and did NOTHING!

[Dr. Shoe]

Security systems are not as reliable as a gun. Second if the alarm goes off but the Police are unable to come right away, what could you do if you are head to head with a potential killer when you are not allowed to have a gun?

[azraelle]

And one more post: Yes, (some) kids go to school in the US armed! Some went to school armed in the 1960's as well. I believe that some go to school armed in other countries as well... Most of the time its in self-defense that they go armed, although self-defense means something alot different to an adolescent than it does to an adult. In the US, from grade 6 thru 12, the kids have lockers, either issued to them free of charge, or for a small fee, usually the rental of the combination padlock for the school year. Due to due process and rights to privacy laws having been extended to students under age 18 by our wonderful courts, it is illegal to randomly search lockers--you have to get a search warrant for a specific student's locker, and for that you have to convince a judge that you have probable cause. Merely having been caught with a weapon or other contraband before does not normally equate to probable cause in the minds of most judges. Until random searches again become permissable, and the use of metal detectors are allowed to be installed at all entrances of schools, thus taking away the safety net in the minds of most students, gun control laws will have little or no effect on the probability of school shootings happening again and again in the US. I assume students are not accorded such priveleges in England, Sweden, or Germany?

[Dr. Shoe]

On 2002-05-31 09:41, azraelle wrote:

From a cold-blooded 12th century "humanitarian" perspective, most people, if they thought about it, would rather get shot and die relatively quickly, than get stabbed repeatedly with a pocket knife, switchblade, tanto, kitchen steak knife (with the serrated edges) or Bowie knife, and then linger on for hours before they died. See for example a scene from "The Long Kiss Goodnight". I defy any of you living in the old world to figure out a way to get rid of all the knives! You don't seem to get it. Anybody angry enough at their world to start blasting away with a gun will do the same with a knife or (God forbid) a sword, which weapons are as freely available in this country to someone who wants one as mail-order hi-heels, and in many cases a DAMN site cheaper! Even after 9/11, if you know where to look, in the west at least, it's not that hard to find a "five-finger discount" on unused abandoned blasting caps, which if used properly, equal a 1/4 stick of dynamite; formulas and instrux are still available on some of the non-US phreak websites for making your own Semtex, PETN (the usual hi-explosive in DetCord), and several others--any hi-school kid with determination could do it--Hell I knew how to do it when I was 12 after consulting several pertinent books from the public library (way back in 1964)! Or if the kid was REALLY SICK, tossing the contents of a pitcher of Parathion into a crowd would kill and/or maim for life nearly everyone it came in contact with that didn't receive the medical antidote (atropine) within 1 hour, because it is absorbed thru the skin in 7 sec or less. And he/she could disappear in said crowd after splashing everyone, because to the crowd it would seem no more inocuous than salad oil, at least for a few minutes.

Getting rid of the weapons does as much good as "straightening the deck chairs on the Titanic" would have done. There IS NO QUICK FIX! In fact, once the family values have disappeared, reference the fall of the Roman Empire, it may be fatally impossible to fix things--we may, in fact, just be postponing the inevitable.

And if the inevitable IS a slow slide into anarchy, I for one, would rather have a gun, as well as a crossbow, blowgun, professional slingshot, and any other "distance" weapons I could get my hands on, AND a few knives & swords. It would also be preferable to be able to acquire them in advance, rather than risking life and limb stealing them from someone else with more foresight than me.

Finally, for those who don't believe that the (possible) posession of guns is a deterrent, when the first easily obtainable concealed weapons law went into effect a few years ago (in Florida) the violent crime rate (which includes armed robberies, murders, and forcible rapes) went down by one half within 2-years of it going into effect. A not so humorous corollary was noted a little later, though--The violent crime rate against persons in RENTAL CARS went way up. Apparently the armed criminals reasoned that it was nearly a sure bet that people in rental cars were probably from out-of-state, and therefore would NOT BE ARMED! Criminals are personally interested in THEIR pursuit of Life, Liberty, and Happiness, So why shouldn't the non-criminal have the same opportunity?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: azraelle on 2002-05-31 10:49 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: azraelle on 2002-05-31 10:59 ]</font>

Why do you want to be killed for? Personally I don't want to be shot or stabbed and I don't intend that to happen because I am not going to deliberatly place myself in a situation where that is going to occur.

Actually, certain knives are banned here too, that doesn't mean that they are not available, it just means that you can't buy them over the counter. A few years ago, a nutter ran beserk in a kindergarten with a machete. He was disarmed by the teacher who received massive wounds as a result but not one child was harmed. If he had had a gun instead I think the story would have been different.

Why do you feel the need to arm yourself in the event of a slide into anarchy? In a real anarchy, there is a breakdown of everything including industry. Do you know how to make ammunition? Would you sit down and make bullets at the expense of tending your crops? Even if you could make ammo, do you know how to extract lead from minerals? Do you know where you can get copper and zinc so you can make brass for the casings? Can you build a furnace that would be suitable to melt down worn out cases to make new ones? (cases will wear out after they have been repacked four or five times and will be liable to explode in your face). Do you know how to make the oil you will need to keep you guns in top condition?

I can understand using crossbows, longbows (bot of which are my weapons of choice), blowpipes, swords, machetes, knives, halberds, pikes, javelins, throwing arrows, etc. Because they are quick easy to make with materials to hand. Within a few years, the only ballistic weapons will be crude cannons or mortars.

This is all theoretical because the best way to halt the slide into anarchy is to start communicating with your neighbours instead of settling your differences at gunpoint.

[Dr. Shoe]

On 2002-06-01 00:29, azraelle wrote:

And one more post: Yes, (some) kids go to school in the US armed! Some went to school armed in the 1960's as well. I believe that some go to school armed in other countries as well...

Most of the time its in self-defense that they go armed, although self-defense means something alot different to an adolescent than it does to an adult.

In the US, from grade 6 thru 12, the kids have lockers, either issued to them free of charge, or for a small fee, usually the rental of the combination padlock for the school year. Due to due process and rights to privacy laws having been extended to students under age 18 by our wonderful courts, it is illegal to randomly search lockers--you have to get a search warrant for a specific student's locker, and for that you have to convince a judge that you have probable cause. Merely having been caught with a weapon or other contraband before does not normally equate to probable cause in the minds of most judges. Until random searches again become permissable, and the use of metal detectors are allowed to be installed at all entrances of schools, thus taking away the safety net in the minds of most students, gun control laws will have little or no effect on the probability of school shootings happening again and again in the US. I assume students are not accorded such priveleges in England, Sweden, or Germany?

This is my point Azraelle, a kid goes to school "tooled up" as we say in the UK and someone upsets him (or her), he starts shooting. If he is not armed then he has to look for another way of determing his anger. When I was at school it was a fight on "redgrath" which was a surfaced pitch for (field) hockey. Some days there would be three or four fights going on simultaneously!

The average 12 year old (grade 6?) will not be able to obtain a gun unless his father has one kicking around the house. This is why our schools don't need metal detectors, even in Hackney. It could be a different story for 16 year olds say, but they are more likely to be bunking anyway.

[Firefox]

It's obvious many of the pro gun people in this thread are passionately interested in the statistics and technical details of the weapons. Perhaps they forget that guns are designed to efficiently blow people's brains out. Not really such a nice subject is it?