Guns? Hunting? or ?

[azraelle]

Does anyone have an opinion (they'd like to share, that is) on gun control, concealed carry laws for crime prevention, or hunting? (or, God Forbid, fishing (yecch)?)

[Trolldeg]

The NRA says: "Guns don't kill people, people do." Eddie Izzard says: "I think the gun helps."

[Yamyam]

On 2002-05-28 01:01, Anonymous wrote:

Far be it from me to lecture an American on the US constitution from the relative safety of the UK, but doesn't the Second Amendment actually say something about carrying arms as part of "a well-ordered militia"? That is, something more like a small army than someone who needs armour-piercing shells to subdue a particularly unruly tub of ice-cream?

I guess that I'm just uncomfortable with the idea of being able to use deadly force, or have it potentially used against me.

Oops-that was me!

[terayon]

I just got my FAC this weekend actually, have been obsessed with guns since i was like 2 years old, been wanting to fire them ever since ive had a few chances...my uncle was a gun collector and had all sorts of sweet guns, like AR-15 assault rifle, combat shotgun, Luger, .357 Magnum, various shotguns and rifles, a 9mm Glock, Colt .45, MP5.... (note: if you are wondering, the AR-15 and the MP5 were not auto, and he bought them before they were banned, plus he had special gun dealer/collector license, so they were legal... ) but then about 3 years ago he moved to the caiman islands and had to sell his entire collection but now that ive turned 16 few months back, i applied for my FAC license, joined a gun club and will be shootin stuff very soon so far i have a 9mm pistol and a .22 rifle....will get a better rifle if the chance arrives for me to go hunting....i think everyone should own a gun, and anyone who goes bashing guns should be quiet, because it IS people who kill people, and a gun is just as dangerous as a knife or car or lead pipe if it is put into the hands of a bad person, but unlike lead pipes and knifes, guns are fairly heavilly regulated.... of course if i really wanted to i could get almost any gun i wanted (highschools today, what a shame!), but i could also get a knife, so quit bitching and go buy a gun!

[Firefox]

I hate guns, I hate hunting, and I hate the thought of killing things, possibly causing painful death, in the name of sport. I don't think people should be carrying guns around for any reason other than going to a shooting competition. I realise that opinion flies in the face of America's gun culture though. Surprisingly I'm not in favour of "banning" them like they have in the UK, as I don't think you can ban anything sucessfully, and it's too much of a restriction on freedom. I just don't think people should be hunting animals or carrying weapons.

[hoverfly]

The U.S. government changed their stance on gun control. (Thank you Ashcroft) They now say the second amendment does mean the right for all to bare arms. The truth is when you put the call out to arms and people come, dose that mean you all ready have an organized militia? All you need is a critical point in time, for all to agree that it would be so justified to fallow through. Guns are a tool, with out man, it is harmless. It's our problems with soicity that get people killed from guns. Don't blame the gun, ask how it got to that point that is got used by some one to kill some one.

[Trolldeg]

well, troubles obtaining a gun in the first place would greatly reduce the risk of someone getting killed by it. face it guys, the brittish are not coming back to claim your country, what do you need all the guns for? to kill yourselves, apparently.

[azraelle]

The trouble is, Trolldeg, with some 100 million hand cannons already floating around in the USA alone, if u make it illegal for "honest, law-abiding citizens" (u know, the ones that normally don't use the black market) to buy guns, Then they become the PREY of those who DO use the black market (u know, shady characters lumped together under the umbrella of "criminals"), such as is happening as we speak, according to the NRA, at least, in Australia. Gun control only works in countries where there weren't very many privately-owned guns to get rid of in the first place, such as Great Britain. It most assuredly wouldn't fly in Switzerland, or Israel. _________________ Hi-Heeled Boots, Bodysuits, and Back-Zipper Pants R wikkid-kool (on me, or U)! <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: azraelle on 2002-05-28 09:00 ]</font>

[Francis]

Reasons for me requiring firearms. 1. Hunting ( to feed myself ) 2. Defense ( if necessary ) 3. To kill the enemy ( wartime only or if I do end up in a contract on some foreign shore ) 4. Disease Control ( as I've had to do many times) Life on a farm brings in points 1 and 4

[Yamyam]

Okay, people who work on farms, I can see that it becomes a tool of the job. And, as a non-vegetarian, I'm on slightly shaky ground condemming hunting. But the whole idea of most of the population walking around armed scares the heck out of me. It's true, tho', that when you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. I think that we're lucky in the UK that most people aren't armed, and the penalties for using a gun in the commission of a crime are rather severe, so that tends to put people off. Each to their own, tho'. I've only been to America a few times, not enough to see if there's a real difference.

[terayon]

there are no firearm restrictions whatsoever in texas, you can conceal weapons, have full auto, RPGs, almost anything you want...they are lucky!

[azraelle]

On 2002-05-28 23:22, terayon wrote:

there are no firearm restrictions whatsoever in texas, you can conceal weapons, have full auto, RPGs, almost anything you want...they are lucky!

Not quite true--they still have to comply with all FEDERAL laws, which make it difficult, and expensive, to get hold of a fully auto weapon, or any non-domestically manufactured semi-auto asault weapon--which means you have a choice of the Ruger Mini-14/30, the Colt AR15, or the Springfield M-1A, (complete with magazine that holds no more than 10 rounds, usually limited to 5 by the mfr, "just to be on the safe side!") if you want a NEW one, or pay whatever the owner of a used assault semi-auto is willing to take for his/hers.

_________________

Hi-Heeled Boots, Bodysuits, and Back-Zipper Pants R wikkid-kool (on me, or U)!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: azraelle on 2002-05-28 23:56 ]</font>

[hoverfly]

If you want to get your hands on a high cap mag all you got to do is buy a pre-ban. Millions were made before the ban had taken affect. You just have to be willing to pay a high price for them. To own a fully automatic weapon here in the U.S., you have to go through a Fed back ground check and pay for the license to own such a weapon. But why would you by a M-60 at $6,000 and each round costs aprox .50 cents a wack. It's more for a rich mans toy or a very expensive novelty item. But in owing a full automatic weapon you pay a price as well. You lose some of you rights. The Feds can come to your house any time unannounced to make sure you comply in having the weapon secured in agreement of having the right of ownership of such a weapon.

[Dr. Shoe]

[ In some parts of Arizona there are no laws against carrying NON-CONSEALED handguns. Would you think twice about robbing a guy when he's got a .357 on his belt? Not if you were pointing a M16 at his kids! Let's face it, all weapons are wrong. Target shooting can be done with single shot .22 rifles or air rifles, You wouldn't need a weapon for self defence if no-one else had any, hunting should be banned and you can kill a diseased animal with either a humane killer or overdose of anaesthetic. The big problem with weapons: You get into an argument with a neighbour and he pulls a small pen-knife and threatens you with it. The next time, you go back with a sword or a machete so he comes back at you with a small pistol. You go back next day with an Uzi 9mm, he pulls a rocket launcher. Next thing you know, you're seriously enquiring about acquiring a nuke. OK I know I'm being over-simplistic and exaggerative but if you just have a simple fist fight, you give him a nose bleed and he gives you a black eye and the next time you meet you crack a crate of beers. I know, it has happened. In my opinion, the only people who require weapons are the military. Remember, the second amendment was written in the 18th or 19th century when the US was still at the mercy of Indians and Mexican bandits.

[hoverfly]

In order to have the kind security in the United States of America like in many other countries, the name of this country would halved to be changed to United Policed States of America. It's a mater of freedoms and rights that we have in this country that other countries don't have. We lose the Second amendment we lose the ability to defend the rest of the Constitution.

[terayon]

if you pay $6000 for an M-60 your getting an excellent deal, an M60 on the black market would fetch that much...legit itd be more like $15000...and a 30round clip for an MP5-SD3 is only about $35USD, should be about the same for most other guns....of course prices would be more if your buying legit or from a store....ammo is always expensive though...

dr shoe: true, you can do target shooting with a .22, but think of guns as a collection, just like stamp collectors want the best stamps, and shoe collectors want tons of shoes in every colour and style under the sun, gun collectors want guns!

not to mention the fact a .22 wont kill anything except maybe a rabit or a squirell....im bored, so check these pictures and tell me if you think a .22 is the only gun you would want to have

note: very sorry for the size, tried to resize it myself, but it kept getting blurry, can an admin please force resize it

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: terayon on 2002-05-29 01:47 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Firefox on 2002-05-29 01:51 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Firefox on 2002-05-29 10:04 ]</font>

[hoverfly]

A .22 is a ok round for short range shoting. But for any thing else you need a more powefull round, that's for sure. Mabye somthing in a .44 mag?

[terayon]

or 12 gauge shotgun with a rifled slug is always effective

[azraelle]

A woman I used to be aquainted with asked her husband why he had recently aquired a caliber .458 Winchester Magnum "elephant rifle". She said "You are never going to Africa to hunt elephants, and it would make hamburger out of anything you're going to be able to hunt in California [where they were living at the time], so why do you have it?" His reply? "Because its BIG, because its POWERFUL, and because its <h2>MINE!"</H2> There is a certain endorphin rush, not unlike the thrill of wearing high heels in public for the first time, of touching off a very loud GUN that kicks like a mule (and in the case of a large caliber black powder rifle, say .54 cal., belches smoke) that just isn't there with a .22, or an air rifle. And just like wearing hi-heels, the feeling is extremely addictive (any rational person would conclude addiction from reading the on-going not-so-friendly debate between those men who like wearing hi-heels who don't like it when someone like Susan tells them she thinks it is abominable (to her)). Likewise, try witnessing a conversation, real or in cyberspace, between a "gun nut" and a "gun-phobic". The trouble is, if you force the male heel wearer (through anti-hi-heel laws?) to give up his heels, he may attack you with the spikes, but if you attempt to do the same to the "gun nuts", what are they going to attack with? The phrase "You can take my gun when you can pry it away from my cold, dead fingers" comes to mind... Firefox: I optimized Terayon's pix down to 800 width @ 20% (from 155K to 32K for faster download) and posted it here: theforumisdown.com/uploadfiles/052102/bullets.jpg _________________ Hi-Heeled Boots, Bodysuits, and Back-Zipper Pants R wikkid-kool (on me, or U)! <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: azraelle on 2002-05-29 06:06 ]</font> <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: azraelle on 2002-05-29 06:54 ]</font> <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: azraelle on 2002-05-29 06:56 ]</font>

[Firefox]

T's message edited with new URL. Some people consider cars are an extension of men's egos and in some case another part of their anatomy. I wonder if guns could be viewed in the same way

[Francis]

Azraelle, I think you've been watching Men In Black too many times in which case "Your proposal is acceptable" As for guns and cars being extensions of the ego or a phallus objects, this could be true. Some people 'get off' on having a flashier or faster car than the next person, just as others do with a bigger or more powerful gun. Somehow, I draw the line at armour piercing rounds in firearms. What you gonna shoot with them? Paper targets, tin cans, rabbits or a truck? Who the hell needs ammunition that can stop a charging rhino when the most dangerous animals are likely to be badgers. All animals will naturally avoid man unless provoked to do otherwise. Wild bears will walk along at a safe distance without feeling threatened. Only when someone goes out of their way to kill an animal will that animal attempt to defend itself, then the person shoots it and claims "it was self defense". Bull! I can understand the sport aspect, but what does killing an animal that you have no intention of eating have to do with hunting. Hunting was a subsistence to life and in this modern age, anyone who can obtain a gun is more likely to go to a grocery store for their food. Unless you are really tapped and take your rifle to go chase down that tin of beans that is on the top shelf.

[Trolldeg]

On 2002-05-28 08:58, azraelle wrote:

The trouble is, Trolldeg, with some 100 million hand cannons already floating around in the USA alone, if u make it illegal for "honest, law-abiding citizens" (u know, the ones that normally don't use the black market) to buy guns, Then they become the PREY of those who DO use the black market (u know, shady characters lumped together under the umbrella of "criminals"), such as is happening as we speak, according to the NRA, at least, in Australia.

strange, we have rather strict gun control here in Sweden, but it's still the US we hear about in the news when kids go berzerk at schools, etc... the hardcore criminals are always going to have weapons, no matter what laws you have, gun control would definately prevent alot of 'not-so-hardcore-criminals' to get hold of weapons, and these are the ones ordinary people are most likely to come across in day-to-day situations. therefore, gun control = reduce the risk of getting shot.

[Trolldeg]

On 2002-05-28 23:22, terayon wrote:

there are no firearm restrictions whatsoever in texas, you can conceal weapons, have full auto, RPGs, almost anything you want...they are lucky!

why is that lucky?

[Trolldeg]

do not blame the tool, but rather blame the man using the tool

if the man didn't have the tool in the first place, I wouln't have to blame him.

[terayon]

I think being able to own a RPG launcher, or full auto weapon whenever you want to for whatever reason you want to and not have to undergoe MONTHS or even years of hassling for it is lucky...it took me 4 months to get my basic FAC license processed...stupid canadian government

[Dr. Shoe]

With all due respect, that's total rot! If someone throws a stone, you pick it up and chuck it back. Bows and arrows should be banned too. If someone hits you with a stick, you hit him with yours. The point is, there is a limit to the size of stick you can lift and the size of stone you can throw. It is impossible to kill from a range of 3 miles with a stone, in fact it is surprisingly difficult to kill at all with a stone. Miss your target and you are not going to kill a bystander, a bonus if that bystander happens to be one of your kids. My point is, the best way to protect your family is to support an outright ban on firearms of all kinds. OK I accept that criminals will always have guns, but are you seriously suggesting that you can protect your family from these people with a handgun when they will probably come at you with something more serious? Even if you kill one of them, you and your family will be marked for life. As for the argument in favour of collecting guns, it has to be said that stamps or shoes are not quite as lethal.

[Dr. Shoe]

[ However, I am vehemently against any gun control and restrictions in the United States. The Bill of Rights is sacred and guarantees the right of American citizens to lawfully keep and use guns. If it's so sacred why does it have so many amendments?

[Debbie(HK)]

Sorry, I'm not into guns - too scary Debbie

[terayon]

marked for life? hahaha unless your planning on killing an assasin from the japanese mafia i wouldnt worry about "being marked" 99% of the people who rob houses and steal cars are amateur theives who do it to support their famillies or a drug habit or something else...point is, they do it for the money, they are not professionals who make a MASSIVE profit like the mob does, if they were, they wouldnt need to do it themselves, they could get others to do their dirty work

[azraelle]

On 2002-05-29 14:30, Francis wrote:

Azraelle, I think you've been watching Men In Black too many times in which case "Your proposal is acceptable"

<hr>

Sorry, Francis, I temporarily forgot that those who do not LIVE in the US have no clue about certain FACTS. As a related aside, when the movie "Its a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" came out in the mid-60's, American audiences were almost rolling on the floor in laughter over an early scene where the escaped convict kicks a discarded bucket as he his body relaxes in death, but when it was shown in France, with French dubbing, there was no audience reaction. Why? In America, the phrase "kick the bucket" is a euphemism for dying rather suddenly. It is meaningless in France--they have another phrase which means the same thing.

In the movie "Men in Black", the redneck says to the alien "You can take my gun when you can pry it from my cold, dead fingers" at which point the bug says "Your proposal is acceptable", kills the redneck, and takes his gun. In America, especially west of the Mississippi, "You can take my gun when you can pry it from my cold, dead fingers" is a very common phrase to find on bumper stickers for cars, T-shirts, postcards, you name it. It is ingrained into the minds of most of us, almost like "apple pie"; otherwise the humor of the moment in "Men in Black" would have been lost, and indeed, would never been put into the movie in the first place.

The point is, though, most American gun owners take the phrase as seriously as they take their religion, with respect to the government attempting to ban guns. If the American government, much less the UN, ever seriously makes the attempt, using the police forces or National Guard to go house to house to confiscate the guns, I have NO DOUBT that civil war will erupt for the second time in this country, with the outcome very much more in doubt than the first time around was using hindsight.

<hr>

Somehow, I draw the line at armour piercing rounds in firearms. What you gonna shoot with them?

Who said anything about Teflon-coated bullets? But since you brought the subject up, another common bumper sticker here is "Gun Control is the ability to hit your target!" If one has it, one has no need for armour-piercing rounds--head shots work just fine!