scary stuff that needs to be stopped!

[Trolldeg]

http://www.againsttcpa.com/tcpa-faq-en.html

[Francis]

this TC stuff does have practical applications, but from what I've read, it will just another measure of control that companies will have over the populace. TC in watches? What happens there? The watch gets DNA coded to the wearer and so it won't tell you the time unless you bought it? Microsoft deletes your family tree because you didn't start writing it on a TC freindly piece of software. TC will spell the end of anything you wish to do. Imagine the scenario. Man wakes up to his alarm which he can't switch off because TC says that he is not authorised to use it. Smashes clock. Goes downstairs to have some breakfast. Toaster refuses to work because it has detected non-TC bread product inserted. Bloke smashes toaster. Goes to work and needs some petrol. Car refuses to run because he fills up at Shell and today he stopped at Total. Bloke smashes car. Walks to work, arrives late. Boss has him fired. Bloke goes home, switches on his computer, but his computer is linked to his work and the TC deletes the contents and prompted blows the computer up. In the meantime, his bank has been notified that his computer has blown up, he's lost his job and his car insurance is no longer being paid, the system shuts down his accounts. Car recovery drags off his car can't be paid for the service and then confiscates his car. TC has buggered another poor sod up. and that's just the tame version. It can (and will) be much worse !!! TC = Total Control (government version) = Total Crap (public version)

[Dr. Shoe]

All that will happen is that the consumer will refuse to purchase TC goods. When the first DVDs came out they were region sensitive which meant that a DVD purchased in the US in advance of the Europe release date would not run on a European player. So, One company markets "multi region" players, another offers a rechipping service. Result: now there is no such thing as single region DVD players, you couldn't buy one if you wanted to. No-one in their right mind would buy a car that only ran on one brand of petrol, or would buy a toaster that only took one kind of bread. In fact it would be a major selling point that you could fuel your car anywhere or use any kind of bread. It would be the same with computers, someone somewhere will be able to sell you a board that circumvents the TC components in your computer or everyone will stick with their old machines thus killing the industry completely. In their arrogance, these companies who have monopolies forget that this will not be the case if they make it viable for others to come into the marketplace. Thinking about it, we shouldn't be running pirate software, listening to "shared" files and watching "£5 specials" DVDs. On the otherhand, if these people can make huge amounts of money selling DVDs for £5 how can the film companies justify £12.99?

[NikkiHH]

I agree with the last few posts: look at the fiasco when a large GM producer tried to force the EU to accept its cheap genetically modified produce. The EU refused, were taken to court and forced to sell it - but couldn't as there was absolutely no market for it as no-one wanted it. OK thats a slightly different can of worms but look at the other microsoft monopoly trials going on the European Court - stifling competetion will end up with a severe financial penalty, but that whopping one they imposed on Microsoft was scarecly a dent in their profits. This (as with most new/emerging technologies) has the potential to be very useful such as combatting piracy, but can also be misused. It is a case of technological responsibility - checks and balances and open consultation with interested/concerned parties and not just forcing it on the market.

[WickedHeelz]

No-one in their right mind would buy a car that only ran on one brand of petrol, or would buy a toaster that only took one kind of bread. In fact it would be a major selling point that you could fuel your car anywhere or use any kind of bread. It would be the same with computers, someone somewhere will be able to sell you a board that circumvents the TC components in your computer or everyone will stick with their old machines thus killing the industry completely. In their arrogance, these companies who have monopolies forget that this will not be the case if they make it viable for others to come into the marketplace.

I agree with the thrust of what you're saying here Dr., but such a mass avoidance will only take place if the technology is suddenly introduced into the mainstream (such as DVD's coming out originally as "region specific"). How these lizards get the consumer is by phasing it in slowly and unbeknownst to the consumer. If the consumer is suddenly faced with the option of buying a PC which incorporates Big Brother BS such as this, you're right, they very well may opt out of buying a new machine and thereby force the industry to stop. But what if they start introducing all the components they need and not tell us? One component here, another few lines of code there, so on and so forth.

How many folks here know that before the Pentium III processor, their processor serial number was inaccessible without physically removing the chip from your PC? Conversely, how many know that since the Pentium III, the processor is effectively a license plate for your computer?

Eventually, the software manufacturers and hardware manufacturers will get their chit together and stop any and all possible piracy. If they don't, they will go out of business.

Of course, the flip side is that it will more than likely result in a flourishing black market for hacks and cracks (kinda like now!).

if these people can make huge amounts of money selling DVDs for £5 how can the film companies justify £12.99?

Oh, that's an easy one. 'Cause then they make even more money. And what more justification would they need?

[jo]

>> someone somewhere will be able to sell you a board that circumvents the TC components <<

With "Palladium" (Microsoft's old name for this "technology") the protection was going to be built into the CPU - and that cannot be circumvented.

The way this will get into the marketplace is by not telling people it exists, or what it really does. It will be sold as "protecting you from hackers and viruses". It will be slid in gradually, or shipped with core parts not enabled, then when enough people have it, the next auto-update will enable the hidden features already built in to what you have bought.

Media player already has a lot of DRM stuff built in. Tens of millions of people have that installed.

[JeffM]

Jo please excuse my ignorance but DRM stuff?????

[chris100575]

DRM = Digital Rights Management (copy protection) They shouldn't be allowed to do it. DRM reared it's ugly head recently when one of my friends bought and downloaded a music track from the internet. Despite having paid for it, he was unable to burn it to a CD to listen to in his car, or upload it to his ipod. In the end he downloaded it illegally instead. This kind of thing doesn't prevent piracy, all it does is inconvenience people. Remember the "copy proof" CD's a couple of years back? They wouldn't play in computer CD drives to stop them from being copied. Unfortunately they wouldn't play in several brands of domestic CD player either. Chris (edited for grammar)

[Dr. Shoe]

With "Palladium" (Microsoft's old name for this "technology") the protection was going to be built into the CPU - and that cannot be circumvented.

My point is that AMD (or somebody) will produce their own version without TC

[JinxieKat]

Just start using the other operating systems out there for computers. Linux is one that will run on a PC platform, personally I switched to Apple computers just for reasons like this. Windoz XP (I think that is the version) came out with this lovely little thing built into it. After so many reformats/reinstalls on your computer you would have to call Microsoft to get a 'code' to reinstall it. You would have to explain why you were reinstalling it again and hope they would give you a code. Yikes! I could easily reformat my hard drive 2x's a year because Windoz and the net don't always mix well. I can see that working well. "Gee Mr. Tech Person, I'm reformatting because your OS sucks and won't let me delete an infected file and just reinstall that file" Hmm.. think that would work? Jinxie

[shyguy]

WickedHeelz makes a good point, the companies involved won't hit the consumer with TC all at once, but by gradual introduction will just slip it in there. There will always be others who will sell you a pc with the TC circumvented, but you will then be locked out of the software you might want. I know Linux is improving quickly in ease of use/install and office software (open office does all MS office can do just as well and for free)etc. but playing the latest games isn't easy on it. And the games producers wil want to stay where piracy is going to be defeated ie with the TC camp. IMHO TC will come, very watered down at first but slowly increased and most users won't even know it's there. Lets be honest M$ started installing TC with XP when you can only change a few parts without it being flagged by the OS. With XP SP2 you now get asked if you really want to run each piece of software you try to run, these are all precursors to TC which we slowly get used to before the next is added. TC will not be good for computer innovation as it won't be a free and easy thing to get TC certified or it would be useless, therefore the small innovative programmers will be unable to release code for others to use. Then all we're left with is rehashes churned out yearly by the big boys. Word 2098 anyone??

[PJ]

As far as I know, the comments expressed so far have been from consumers. I would love to hear comments from professional programmers and professional musicians who would benefit from such technology if it was done correctly and without abuse.

[heelsRus]

As far as I know, the comments expressed so far have been from consumers. I would love to hear comments from professional programmers and professional musicians who would benefit from such technology if it was done correctly and without abuse.

Without abuse? Then what's the point?

Personally I don't see why the record industry is being as pig-headed and business-stupid as they are.... oh, yeah, they're run by people with MBAs. Ok, cynical, sarcastic mode mostly turned off. It would be so simple to offer the music to people at a fair value and give the artist what they really deserve - the biggest cut of the profit. If it wasn't for the artist the record industry would be no where. If it wasn't for the recording industry, the artist would be (overal) better off. Hm.....

The problem, as I see it anyway, is that people generally steal things they find don't have fair market value. For example, why would I bother to download music if I could get it legally and without hassle (and get what I wanted) for a reasonable amount? CDs were supposed to make the price of music drop. As I recall, the price of a tape was about Cdn$9 when CDs came out. Now it's C$22 or so. Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't _sound_ like the price dropped. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the artist is getting not much more, if any, and the media is less expensive. Who's collecting all the cash? Ah, yes, the lawyers for prosecuting those people downloading music because the RIAA associates are greedy ......

Same thing for software.

And if you think _that's_ negative, don't get me started on taxes and auto insurance

Life is better when you're about 4" higher :-)

[PJ]

To heelsRus:

You have to realize that if the Canadian government can slap on a 15% sales tax to your purchases, then the recording industry has every right to over charge for recorded media.

To everyone:

Check out the links below. The first one defends the recording industry. The second one reveals the greed and control of the major labels in the industry.

http://www.riaa.com/news/guestcolumns/milescopeland.asp

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0411/p13s02-almp.html

[heelsRus]

To heelsRus:

You have to realize that if the Canadian government can slap on a 15% sales tax to your purchases, then the recording industry has every right to over charge for recorded media.

To everyone:

Check out the links below. The first one defends the recording industry. The second one reveals the greed and control of the major labels in the industry.

http://www.riaa.com/news/guestcolumns/milescopeland.asp

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0411/p13s02-almp.html

The RIAA and it's associates can over charge, sure, but the more they over charge the more people will pirate the music. If they were smart they would lower the price, sell more, make more profit, etc. And if the price were low enough they wouldn't have much disagreement about going after pirates.

As for the Gov't charging us 15%, yes, that's our sales tax. They also charge us a "levy" (aka tax) on all blank media including CDs, DVDs, VHS tapes, hard drives, etc. They then take this money and give it to the RIAA to distribute to their affected artists. Uh, yeah, we're already paying for the crime so why not do it? There haven't, to-date, been any lawsuits (from the RIAA) brought against any Canadian for downloading music. I think they'd be on shaky ground since you could argue that we're paying for the music already (through the levy).

[Nova]

Yo ho ho, it's a pirate's life for me... *knock knock* excuse me, Microsoft's at the door...

[Dr. Shoe]

It's the same for smuggling, the government charges a fortune in duty and then VAT on top! All they have to do is to illiminate the VAT and that would cut piracy at a stroke because it would no longer be viable.

[genebujold]

TC protects everyone else's interest except for those who own, operate, and maintain the computer! The only valid trusted computing paradigm is where the owner/operator/administrator retains full control over how hardware and software runs on that computer. Windows NT 3.51 got it right with it's ring approach, but even so most services (loopholes) were enabled unless specifically disabled. A more valid approach is to disable everything then ask as required. Troublesome at first, but far wiser in the long run: Adobe CS (program) would like to print to Canon 800D (printer). How would you like to proceed? Action: 1. Do not allow 2. Allow CS to print to 800D. 3. Allow CS to print to any local printer. 4. Allow CS to print to any printer, local or networked. Frequency: 1. Do not allow. 2. This time only. 3. All the time. In addition, it would be nice to be able to access a well-organized Table of Permissions that would include users and programs slated against resources, that would could easily edit by choosing the correct response from the drop-down located in the intersection.

[Nova]

genebujold, you sound like a programmer, or at least a system admin. Nice theory you've got. It would work great I bet, but for home users (less advanced) that sort of thing may be annoying. I do hate the way Microsoft seems to assume we're all idiots, though. Jen