Truth in Jest?

[sscotty727]

I've always heard the term "Truth in Jest" and have always felt there is alot of fact in that. This past Friday, the Federal Government had off as a holiday because of the recent events. Since I work as a consultant, we had to work and got permission to be onsite. During the week I joked how we could really dress down since customers won't be here and I made a comment on how I would just show up in a bathrobe and slippers instead. Well, one of my coworkers said "Oh we don't really want to see you in a dress and high heels". I have been wearing my 3" block heels for a while now and wondered if maybe he was making a stab at that. What do you all think? Also now that I think back, I have noticed a subtle difference in people's attitude towards me (warm and friendly before, more reserved since I have been wearing the heels). I was just curious of your opinions and if any of you had anything similiar happen to you. Scotty

[new_look]

its possible they may have noticed but arent gutsy enough to comment. I think if someone at our wore something i might not agree with myself, i probably would just keep my mouth shut, but my opinion of that person may change slightly because maybe i didnt imagine them in that way. An example of that would be a lad who i sed to knock about with at school, i recently bumped into him and hes a full goth. It was the last person i wouldve expected to be. it might be the same with you. Also theres all the laws of the workplace re discrimination, people may not wanna offend you. Our manager was saying something the other day that if one of the lads wore a skirt to work she would have to accept and not say anything about it as she would get into trouble. just my thoughts, but who knows daz

[asdf174]

Who knows to be honest. I don't see why people cloths are such a big deal now a days.

[larry]

Hello scotty. Ok I understand where your'e at with this one. I probably would take it personal but thats because of my insecurities. I really think that he was trying to show humor, for your benefit or another way to put it is that he was showing a back handed way of showing acceptance for your boot wearing. In all reality he probably doesnt care one way or the other. Just my 2 cents worth....larry.

[Firefox]

I'd agree with Larry. It seems you may still be somewhat negative about it yourself so you are looking for the negatives from the situation. A good example is if one walks past some teenage girls and they are giggling, you may think it's because of the shoes. However try the same trick of walking past them without heels and they are still giggling. It's then you realise they never even saw you and were giggling about something quite unrelated. However, because of your guilty feelings you had automatically attributed the laughter in the first instance without evidence. I've never had anyone treat me any differently at work or be cold towards me because of footwear. I'm pretty sure of this. I went on a two day training course this week. The first day I wore 4" boots, the second training shoes. There was no difference in reactions, in fact I had a great time socially with the other delegates on both days.

[sscotty727]

Hi Firefox, Actually, I am very comfortable and confident in my heels. I actually just laughed back and said "well, you never know". Also I have NOT stopped wearing my heels to work either. Matter of fact, just yesterday when I was at work I passed a full length mirror in the bathroom and noticed the pants I think overed my heels actually did not at all, you could pretty much see the whole shoe. I just shrugged it off and thought "Oh well". I think people are getting used to seeing me in them. I have no idea if they think me odd or sick or whatever, but I don't really care. I was just wondering if you all thought the comment was maybe a way for him to say something negative without saying it or whatever. To be honest, I have been thinking about it and I think what happened is that we had a person just leave and I took over their role right about the time I started wearing the 3" heels to work. What I took as people changing attitudes could just be we are all busier and I have just gotten busier too and people have less time to "be nice to the new guy". Still, it did take me aback when he said it, just made me wonder if there was a hidden meaning there. But as long as I do my work and am friendly with everyone, doesn't really matter. Scotty

[new_look]

i know what you mean from a minilar experience however scotty. My heeling is secret apart from my gf. When i was about 15, i used to wear some heels round the block in the night. My mate is the same age and lives next door, and his bedroom is on the from of the house like mne. I was always sure that one day he would look out of his window and see me, but hes never said anything. But there has been a couple of occasions where he has said things, and its made me think, just like you did, 'has that a hidden meaning' under his outward joke. Thre was a pair of jades shoes in the back of my car, and he was very quick to ask if they were mine. I actually joked back that yes they were, to which i just got a laugh back, but it made me think. Also ive thought ive seen him looking through the side of his curtains a few times, when ive got out of my car after taking jade home at night. (i used to wear heels as i did this) and i was sure he knew. I know where you are coming from. It could be a case of paranoia, or a subtile hint. daz

[Bubba136]

Daz, is there some reason you really care if he knows you wear heels? Is he the type to mouth-off to others in the neighborhood about things like that?

[xaphod]

It's a bit off topic, but I remember a comment I made to an ex g/f.

Instead of the usual 'there's method in my madness', I reversed the phrase as a bit of a joke, to

'There's madness in my method'. To which her reply was 'there's truth in jest'.

Yes, she was great at put-downs, but later I had the last laugh by putting her down, ie dumping her.

Xa

[new_look]

to your question bubba, yes he is that sort. he likes to be a news spreader

[new_look]

to your question bubba, yes he is that sort. he likes to be a news spreader

[PJ]

sscotty; My guess is that they have taken notice and probably are talking behind your back. That's how I would feel in this happened to me.

[genebujold]

Hi, Scotty. Yes, any time people do things nearing or beyond the edge of another's comfort zone they will tend to be less respective, regardless of merit. That is why I'm carefull to limit my public heel-wearing to evening's out with my wife, and then only wearing conservative styles. Then again, I own my own business, and am responsible for the welfare of several others and their families. If went off half-cocked the reaction from potential or current clientelle may very well be enough to shut me down, thereby jeapordizing the welfare of the families of my colleagues. I would have to say that one should always evaluate the bottom line: "What would happen if everyone knew that I wore high heels?" If that's acceptable in terms of job, personal convictions, need for belonging, etc., then I would say go for it. If not, however, it may be time to throttle back a little until you've re-established some of those relationships that are often more valuable to our future welfare than we might think! As with anything outside the concept of what's considered "normal" among whatever group of individuals with whom you hang, consider going easy until you know the lay of the land, and then, only go so far as you feel safe without risking the serious investments you may have made into future income, friends, employers, etc. Easy does it... Too fast and the back-lash could wipe you out faster than a roller from Maui's North shore...

[genebujold]

But as long as I do my work and am friendly with everyone, doesn't really matter.

Scotty

People in the states are still being canned for actions not consistant with employer's business interests.

Even though I wear heels, I'd have to fire a colleague who wore thigh-highs and miniskirts to work because he would seriously undermine my company's relationship with our clients, to the serious detriment of the others working here.

Yes, I've a responsibility to the one (two, if it came to pass) who wants to wear heels, but I've a greater responsibility to all of my coworkers and their families.

[sscotty727]

People in the states are still being canned for actions not consistant with employer's business interests.

Even though I wear heels, I'd have to fire a colleague who wore thigh-highs and miniskirts to work because he would seriously undermine my company's relationship with our clients, to the serious detriment of the others working here.

Yes, I've a responsibility to the one (two, if it came to pass) who wants to wear heels, but I've a greater responsibility to all of my coworkers and their families.

Gene,

I am not talking mini shirts and 5" pumps here, I am talking a conservative pair of 3" block heels. If anything, perhaps they just look 70ish. Would it be more acceptable if I wore flat men's shoes but tattered pants and torn/dirty shirts? Afterall, alot of "computer" geeks dress just that way.

If we start thinking that way we are ourselves going back to limiting what men can wear fashion-wise. Yes if they person (man or woman) was wearing inappropriate clothing to work, yes you had a right to take action. I sure hope you talked to them first, maybe given them a warning instead of just canning them.

If my employer had a problem with me wearing them I would have long ago been canned. It has been OVER a month of me wearing the 3" heels and except for the one comment in jest I had, I haven't been taken outside and chastised. As others have suggested, I think maybe it was his way of either joking about my attire or perhaps it was just him being a smartass without even commenting on my shoes at all (this group is known to joke with each other alot).

The company I work for and where I work:

1) Has alot of foreigners who have different styles, clothing and even earrings

2) Has a complete "alternate lifestyle" acceptance policy. They celebrate "Gay Pride Week" (although I personally am not gay), gives 100% life partner benefits

Also, what I wear on my feet does not cause me to work less effiecent nor does it distract from others, so I think if they did try to take action they would be facing a MAJOR lawsuit.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Scotty

[genebujold]

If I had a back room where you could get away with wearing tattered jeans and 3" block heels, I'd probably hire you. But my business involves consultants who deal with a very particular public, and heels don't mix with this crowd. Nothing personal, and I'm truly sorry you don't like it (I don't either), but that's simply the business I happen to be in. You must understand that I don't dictate business in this town - I react to it. If I make wrong choices, it's not only my family who's in the food kitchen next month, it's four other families, as well. If you don't like it, I do't either, but that's the way it is - no hard feelings, and there are plenty of other market niches in which alternative wear is entirely acceptible. If my ankle ever got to the point where I'd have to wear heels full time, I'd either retire to my home office as a freelance technical writer or go work for one of those market niches myself. While growing up I always believed I'd change the world. As an adult, I realize that in some areas change is easy. In other areas, it's hard. In still other areas, it's next to impossible. One has to pick their battles, and in this arena, the battle I pick to fight involves the livlihood of those individuals who trust me to be their boss, their friend, their mentor, protector, and advisor, and that's a responsibility I don't take lightly, regardless of my personal beliefs. They've trusted me. All have their lives wrapped up in this. For some, their family fortunes, too. I will not risk that to prove a personal point of interest. If they were all heel-wearers, things would be different, but they're not, and I respect that - respect, and loyalty, goes both ways in most industries, and mine is no exception. Nothing personal - that's just the way things are.

[sscotty727]

If I had a back room where you could get away with wearing tattered jeans and 3" block heels, I'd probably hire you. But my business involves consultants who deal with a very particular public, and heels don't mix with this crowd.

Gene,

I take this as a very personal insult. Just because I chose to wear heels (and you judge me before you even see what heels I am wearing) I am not qualified to be a consultant (and very respected at that) but according to you I am only fit to work in a backroom of a tatoo parlor.

You are so hypocritcal. You argue how men wore heels and skirts throughout history, you argue not to judge others by what they wear and you argue that its just a fashion statement, the lines are blured between men and women's clothes and then you make a personal attack like above.

You don't know me. You don't know my work. You don't know how I am or am not perceived at work. One thing is certain. I for one would NEVER work for you, obviously it is nothing either of us have to worry about.

Scotty

[dressboots]

I have to agree with genebujold as my job requires a certain look for dealing with the public. It is conservative. scotty727, please do not take it personally. As gene said it is just how some situations are. Many people judge others by their outward appearance first, and do not bother to get past that. My job (public sector) involves lots of contact with people on a daily basis that have no idea who I am, but are there for a service I provide. We are instructed to follow a conservtive dress code. No sandles, No teashirts with logos for instance. There is a flexiblity built into the rules but we are trusted not to wear clothing (shoes included) that will cause some members of the public to wrongly judge our entire organization based on one representative. I do wear a bracelet that many would label femine but it is unusual enough that people (when they ask) are generally more interseted in what it is than who should be wearing it. I took the chance and interviewed for the job wearing it 13 years ago. Never been told to stop. I worked for others who told me never to wear it on the job, but did not care what I did off the job. Same comparison could be made for heels, perhaps.

[sscotty727]

Dressboots, First of all, I don't take personally that you or Gene feel your in environment that isn't condusive to wearing heels. That is fine, however I think as Firefox always says, if you have the right attitude people see you positive and confident. What I took exception to is the way I was labelled "If I had a backroom tatoo parlor then maybe I would hire you". That makes it sound as if all I am fit for is a low class job if I choose to wear heels. And this from a guy that WEARS heels and tells people here ad nasium in VERY long letters to be positive, push the envelope and men throughout HISTORY wore heels and skirts. If you aren't going to walk the walk, don't talk the talk. Now what you are all comfortable with in work, public, etc is fine. Be yourself. But don't judge or be down on others that choose to be that way. If instead Gene had said... "Scotty, that is great you are able to wear heels in your job, just take notice and becareful as others might be that open. In my job unfortunatly I can't be that way, but perhaps someday too I can push the envelople as you do". No, I got "I fire people that wear heels that work for me, maybe if I had a backroom tatoo parlor I MIGHT hire you". Now you all tell me which is more positive and less hypocrital??? Gene, I don't wish to fight you or debate you on this. You made your points well known and up to that last comment you made I was with you and pretty much always agreed with you. This last comment hurt. It suggests I am some kind of weirdo by wearing heels at work. You say never wear heels unless you don't care if others see you. Let me ask you this. What if you run into someone that you fired or didn't hire for wearing heels and then ran into them in another setting with YOU wearing heels and a skirt?? How would you feel and how would you address the situation? What if you ran into a client, would you run and hide in shame? Think about it. Scotty

[genebujold]

I've always heard the term "Truth in Jest" and have always felt there is alot of fact in that.

This past Friday, the Federal Government had off as a holiday because of the recent events. Since I work as a consultant, we had to work and got permission to be onsite. During the week I joked how we could really dress down since customers won't be here and I made a comment on how I would just show up in a bathrobe and slippers instead. Well, one of my coworkers said "Oh we don't really want to see you in a dress and high heels". I have been wearing my 3" block heels for a while now and wondered if maybe he was making a stab at that. What do you all think? Also now that I think back, I have noticed a subtle difference in people's attitude towards me (warm and friendly before, more reserved since I have been wearing the heels).

I was just curious of your opinions and if any of you had anything similiar happen to you.

Scotty

Yeah... But not because I have to do with the governement. Rather, it's because all holidays result in surges throughout the service and support industries. As a result I've not taken vacation during any holiday in more than a decade.

The upside is that when I do take holidays I'm not fighting crowds, I pay less for mo/hotels, the parks and beaches aren't nearly as crowded, airfairs are almost always lower...

While joining in with the neighborhood gang over a holidy is fun, it pays significant dividends elsewhere to be a contrarian!

[dressboots]

scotty727: Missed the insulting part. Didn't mean to join in on an insult. Just agreeing with some work situations. Prejudice is a very tough subject to deal with. Forgive me for my feeble attempt at that, but the work place can be a difficult place to be one's self. People change and can change. You are completely correct in that this forum routinely pushes and promotes pushing the envelope on men's fashions.

[sscotty727]

Everyone, I never suggested that everyone here should wear heels at work. You all need to make decisions for yourself. Some people are comfortable with it and can get away with it, others need to be more conservative. I understand that. You have to make your own decisions based on your situation and comfort level. All I am asking is that those of us that ARE comfortable with wearing them don't judge us as "weirdos" when while you preach tolerance and ability to wear heels. Thanks, Scotty

[Bubba136]

Hey Scotty, the old saying that "discretion is the better part of valor" rules here. As you alluded to in your post, each individual has to make their own decisions based on their situation and comfort level." Now, that being said, genebj has every right to establish the standards for dress, appearance and performance for his business. After all, it's a zoo out there. Competition is fierce and he knows what his customers want and clients will view as acceptable behavior. It's his business and if any employee or prospective employeeis uncomfortable with or doesn't want to abide by his rules, they are free to quit or not apply.....and, he has every right to insist they either conform or quit. If they refuse or don't, then it's within his prerogative, and obligation to all of his other employees, to "let them go to seek employment elsewhere." I also own and operate my own business. I have for almost 11 years now. Clients seek me out. I don't make any effort to seek business. Clients come to me and I have more work than I can handle. I am busier that I ever wanted to be. I don't need to work. If I ever reach the point where business falls off to a point that I must seek clients, I will quit working altogher and "retire." Therefore, I set the rules both with my clients and the people I hire. While certain things are open for negotiation, it still depends upon what I decide and my say-so is the final word. If a client insists on my adhering to certain personnel or contractual requirements, and I find them restrictive or against MY ethics, principles and/or standards, I give them a choice. It's MY way or take your business elsewhere. If they don't like it, then they just need to step aside and let the client waiting in line behind them step forward. It works for me and I don't really care if you or any of my clients or employees aren't happy with it. Besides, if you work for a defense contractor or for the defense department, just try walking down the halls of the Pentagon or into the NMCC wearing your stiletto heels. See how long you remain on the payroll and how difficult it will be for you to find another job in government. Then you can scream "discrimination" as loud as you can and see how far it get's you. On the other hand, if you can find a employer that agrees with you and accepts your premises, more power to you. And, hope you keep the job because you will find employers like that few and far between.

[sscotty727]

Bubba, #1, I don't wear Stilletos, I never said that would be appropriate, even for women a short mini skirt and stilletos in a professional business environment wouldn't be appropriate. I said I wear 3" block heels, even my sister-in-law said they looked unisex. #2, I DO work for a defense contractor and work onsite on a military base. #3, IF you would have read what I wrote, I said I took offense by the comment that Gene implied I was MAYBE fit to work in the back room of a tatoo parlor NOT as a consultant. This is from a group of people that say they are trying to break down the barriers of fashion. I joined this board for support in my heel passion, not to be blasted on my choices, however that is what I feel like I am getting here. And more troubling is barely anyone has come to my defense or even said they agreed with my position. I am not asking people to blast Gene for his views on HIS company, as you said that is HIS decision. I was merely trying to get him to see how people could look at that view as contradictory. If that is causing rife amoungst you all, fine, so be it. Maybe it is time I quit posting here and move on myself. Scotty

[JeffM]

What ever we do in life has its consequences. If I married some one who I loved dearly then there are consequences to that marriage, they could be happy ones or not so happy. If we had children that too has its consequences. They could be the greatest kids on this planet or they could be nasty kids, whatever they are the consequences are mine and my wife’s. If I have my own business it succeeds or it fails and the consequence of having my own business are mine. If I choose to wear high heels to see my clients then the consequences are mine. If the business is a success because all my clients are women who like to see a guy in high heels, great. If the business fails because all none of my clients like seeing a guy in high heels then whoa is me. Then there is this. Perception is reality. How we react to people is based on our perception of them. But our perceptions are not necessarily factual. Think about it, it is connected to what I said above. As for opinions, try this. Stand in a large field at midnight and for 15 minutes say out loud all the opinions you have about any thing that comes to mind. At the end of the 15 minutes look around and see what has changed because of your opinions. NOTHING. So if your opinions have no effect on the universe, the order of which is ordained, how would they have an effect on any one who is capable of making choices? So Scotty your perceptions of Bubba and Gene may be accurate or inaccurate, it doesn’t matter. What matters is how you react to them. You have made a lot of postings here as has Bubba and Gene and all intelligent ones. I for one would not like to see any of you depart. But that is just my opinion. The choice to leave or stay of course is yours and so are the consequences. Best wishes Jeff

[Bubba136]

Ahhhhh! Get over it sscotty. While your 3" block heels don't push the "envlope" to the tearing point, it still is a first and bold statement. Good for you. However, regardless of your talent, capabilitiy and proficiency, it is still the business owner that evaluates the commercial atmosphere and sets requirements, accordingly. He has invested his money, time, ideas and talent into a "personal" enterprise and had the courage to step out on the limb of entrepreneurship to succeed or fail according to his rules of engagement. genebj is just facing reality. Although it might be "politically correct" to have a extremely virile male crossdresser for a receptionist, I, for one, would hate to have a guy in a dress and high heels as the first person clients see when they walk through the front door of my business. One other thing! I don't believe "gbj" ever questioned your competence. His reaction was based upon where to put you so that your appearance wouldn't threaten his business, his ability to operate within the boundaries of what he personally knows are the acceptable limits for commercial enterprise like his and to protect his ability to provide a secure environment for the rest of his employees. That being said, I'll reiterate that he has every right to evaluate personnel he "selects" to work of him, set parameters concerning performance, dress and conduct, personnel policies, ect. And, I don't believe that anyone that has the courage to wear "3" block heels" to work in an environment where everyone else is uniformly dressed with shined combat boots and sidewall hair cuts would be so sensitive as to let a tee-niney, itty bitty hypothetical occupational disagreement drive them from a forum about high heels. I, for one, would hate to see you quite. We're not picking on you. We just are expressing realities that both gbj and me, as business owners, have experienced up close and personally. Besides, having been raised in and lived around the Washington, DC area for a large part of my life, your being here gives me the comfort of knowing that I wasn't the only guy in the DC area that loved to wear high heels.

[sscotty727]

Bubba/Gene/Emery, Truce, ok? I didn't mean to start a free for all fight amongst us all, this board is a place where we are ALL suppose to come for support and advice from and for each other, not pounce on each other for differing views. Bubba/Gene, look I understand that perhaps in your business you need to be more conservative and lower key. I happen to work for a VERY large employer and me wearing block heels I am sure is more tame that some of the other things they have (this is a company that OPENLY celebrates Gay Pride Week). I was told that some of the previous people on this project at this customer were openly gay, I have seen women here wearing maybe not 6" stilletos, but atleast 4" heels with short skirts and everyone there dresses all the way from suits to jeans and tshirts! We have a few people from the UK and Scotland where they wear their hair up in a point! Also, I didn't wear my 3" heels from day one, I did wear 2" which are also very stealthy. I got to know everyone there first and judged how they might react, etc. It was once I got comfortable with them and they with me that I started to slowly wear my 3" heels. First time was a casual day with longer jeans (Fridays are casual day there). When I didn't get a negative reaction, I wore them during the week with my dress pants, again no negative reaction. Actually, so far I have gotten NO reactions, even when I do pass some military personnel. Perhaps they see me as civilian and know that the civilian population does dress more less formal. Anyway, the only thing could even be perceived as "negative" was that one comment from my co-worker, and he was laughing as he said it, not upset or anything. He also still treats me professionally as does everyone else, so I don't think it is an issue. If they did push me on the topic, I can always use the bad back excuss, which to some degress is true. When I first started here, I had to drop off my security application using a walking stick because I hurt my back. Wearing heels does actually make my back fell pretty good. Not sure if medically true or psycologically(sp?) but I doubt they would fire me over something medically, too risky and again this is a MAJOR company that is in the news alot and couldn't stand negative press like that. Anyway, I think we ALL here should support each other in whatever we do because I think of you all as brothern in the same cause, not enemys on different sides. If I wanted that, I would have gone to the Fashion Forms site, we have enough people there throwing rocks as us. Let's NOT do that here. Scotty

[Bubba136]

Emery. I'll take your advice since I made my point (And no, I don't believe I would hire you, either).

[sscotty727]

From my company's HR manual:

"We believe in treating each employee and applicant for employment fairly and with dignity. We base our employment decisions on merit, experience, and potential, without regard to race, color, national origin, gender, marital status, age, religion, disability, or sexual orientation.

Our Equal Opportunity policy is founded on the philosophy that our employees and applicants for employment must be treated equitably. We do not discriminate based on personal preference or physical characteristics, and our experience confirms that supporting policies and practices with a strong commitment to equal employment opportunity is a good business practice. "

Scotty

[genebujold]

Bubba/Gene/Emery,

Truce, ok?

Scotty

Excellent suggestion. I would like to add, however, that people should refrain from taking insult where none is given.

If we can't do so, we're no better than the non street-heelers who want a city ordinance barring heel-wearing men inside city limits because it offends them.

They choose to be offended, because they don't understand, or are simply not used to it. We're not in any way trying to offend them, any more than I'm trying to insult Emery.

I'm truly sorry you're insulted, Emery, but I had absolutely no intention of insulting you. Please remember that I am a prodigous poster who happens to behind all the causes and points you mentioned, not against them (or you). I am not your enemy!

Nevertheless, I believe I explained my points quite well, so I don't need to repeat them - but neither will I retract them.

I do have something to add: When the times change to the point where wearing heels would not materially affect my business, I'll gladly re-write our dress code to allow for the tasteful wear of heels. Until then, we're men in black, right down to the flat loafers on which I, too, must painfully trod because, well, that's just business, and going any other route would loose us a LOT of business, something we simply cannot afford to do.