Kristallnacht

[meganiwish]

The 75th anniversary.  Tomorrow is Remembrance Sunday in the UK. 'Lest We Forget'.  That means if we forget,  it may happen  again.  The same is true of something like Kristallnacht.  Let us remember what civilised people can end up doing, lest we do it again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs5bnVoZK4Q

[at9]

I know many people whose relatives were murdered in nazi concentration camps. I also know a number who escaped (or their parents escaped) in time, including one family who managed to get out in August 1939. Apart fromthe 6 million Jews let us also not forget the million+ Roma, Sinti, homosexuals and other "untermenschen" who were murdered.

 

Germany and Austria gave us Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Goethe, Schiller and so many more who ascended the peaks of civilisation. And also gave us Hitler.

 

As for "never again" let us not forget Stalin's post-WW2 purges (at least 10 million) , former Yugoslavia, Rwanda and likely several others I have failed to mention.

[Shafted]

I recently heard in the media that Hitler put more than 150 million to death. So why are we so focused on the Jews if they were only 6 million?

[dww]

The number does not matter at the end of the day, lets just never forget it happened and god rest all of those poor souls, and pray it can never happen again.

[at9]

I recently heard in the media that Hitler put more than 150 million to death. So why are we so focused on the Jews if they were only 6 million?

 

First, as dww has said, it's not a numbers game. I think the 150 million figure may be the total number of lives lost on all sides and for all reasons due to WW2. Including soldiers killed in combat, civilians killed by bombing etc as well as those Jews, Sinta, Roma and others murdered in cold blood by the nazis.War is a nasty business, even when neither side resorts to deliberate mass murder.

[meganiwish]

WW1 cost 9 million lives, mostly combatants.  WW11 is usually estimated to have cost 60 million, mostly non-combatant.  The Soviet Union alone lost some 20 million of its citizens.

 

From 1936 war became much more deadly to civilians and still is.

 

The focus is on the Jews because the Nazis were more open about it.  One needn't assume they ever intended to stop there.  Their propaganda was very efficient.  It takes a conscious effort at the mention of the Jews not to get a mental picture of shabby, sullen people in shapeless coats, to remember that they had been citizens like everyone else.  Have you seen those photographs of piles of shoes and spectacles etc?  Most striking are the piles of false legs.  I could never understand why there were so many, then it dawned on me - they'd been men who'd fought for Germany in WW1.

 

I thought it was in poor taste some years back when Volkswagen, of all people, used the image of the girl in the red coat from Schindler's List in one of their television adverts.

[at9]

I thought 150 million seemed a bit high.

 

There were many Jews who fought with honour for the Kaiser in the Great War. They managed to hang on to some privileges in nazi Germany for a little longer but ultimately they were still systematically killed. German Jews were probably the most assimilated Jewish community in the world. Very much thinking themselves German first, Jewish second. Much as many of us would define ourselves by nationality before religion. This was in contrast to the Jews of Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe who very much defined themselves by their religion. The German Jews widely thought that Hitler and his henchmen were just yet another little local difficulty to be overcome. After all, they occupied many important positions and hadn't they served the fatherland in WW1? Even after Kristalnacht there were still some who couldn't believe that mass murder was the future for them. Even the nazis hadn't quite got that far in 1938, the "final solution" was only finalised at the Wannsee conference in 1942.

 

Some German Jews escaped to France, holland or other European countries which were subsequently invaded by the nazis. Many did not survive. Although many Jews escaped to the US and UK there was a lot of pressure against such immigration within those countries.

 

The nazis forged some strange alliances too. Some arabs, who must have been untermenschen in nazi eyes, were brought in as allies because they hated the Jews. If Germany had won the war I wonder what would have become of them.

 

As for the Roma and Sinti peoples that were systematically murdered they were perenial outsiders, even more than the Jews. They had few communities to which they might escape., few people outside Germany who might speak of their plight.

[ilikekicks]

I recently heard in the media that Hitler put more than 150 million to death. So why are we so focused on the Jews if they were only 6 million?

 

Being honest.. roughly 80-90% of the Jews on the planet were *exterminated*.

 

Hitler : Jan 30, 1939.

"Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!"

 

Joesph Gobbles : German Propaganda Archive, Calvin College.

 

"Regarding the Jewish Question, the Führer is determined to clear the table. He warned the Jews that if they were to cause another world war, it would lead to their own destruction. Those were not empty words. Now the world war has come. The destruction of the Jews must be its necessary consequence. We cannot be sentimental about it. It is not for us to feel sympathy for the Jews. We should have sympathy rather with our own German people. If the German people have to sacrifice 160,000 victims in yet another campaign in the east, then those responsible for this bloody conflict will have to pay for it with their lives."

 

Hebrews and those of Jewish linage were the primary targets. The others ( Gypsies, blacks, homosexuals and what were considered ' undesirables ' ) were tossed in but never mentioned even though they were just as good a fodder as a Jew.

 

 

It was something planned ( Final Solution ). A ' genocide ' in todays words. Its something ' bleeding hearts ' of today use all too often and need to keep the foothold on control of the word ' Nazi ' in order to make others look bad.

 

The moment Adolf and crew started to disarm the public, and nobody fought back ( on a mass scale ), was what lead to the concentration camps and outright slaughter of millions of people.

 

The reason people and the conversation focuses on the ' Jew ' is because of the pictures of the Ovens and Death Camps that can be held up. The ' Stimulation ' of peoples emotions..

 

Theres no difference in what modern media does and what Hitler did. Exploiting people is wrong regardless of which side its on.

 

As I have said many times, long before this thread even started, Im half Spic, Half Jew and Dont care either way.

[at9]

"Being honest.. roughly 80-90% of the Jews on the planet were *exterminated*."

 

Don't know where you're getting your figures from. According to this site http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html it's a little under 40%. There's no need to exaggerate, that's still terrifying enough.

 

"Theres no difference in what modern media does and what Hitler did. Exploiting people is wrong regardless of which side its on."

 

I'm not sure what to say about such a breathtaking claim. Comparisons with the nazis are widely invoked.for many reasons, most of which are spurious. I would ask HHP members to reflect on the claim that media exploitation is no different to waging large scale war and planning and executing mass murder.

[meganiwish]

 

As for the Roma and Sinti peoples that were systematically murdered they were perenial outsiders, even more than the Jews. They had few communities to which they might escape., few people outside Germany who might speak of their plight.

I have recently read, in British newspapers, articles where if you replaced the word 'traveller' with the word 'jew' you'd be reading nazi propaganda.  It matters not who the people are.  We must be forever vigilant.

[ilikekicks]

"Being honest.. roughly 80-90% of the Jews on the planet were *exterminated*."

 

Don't know where you're getting your figures from. According to this site http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html it's a little under 40%. There's no need to exaggerate, that's still terrifying enough.

 

"Theres no difference in what modern media does and what Hitler did. Exploiting people is wrong regardless of which side its on."

 

I'm not sure what to say about such a breathtaking claim. Comparisons with the nazis are widely invoked.for many reasons, most of which are spurious. I would ask HHP members to reflect on the claim that media exploitation is no different to waging large scale war and planning and executing mass murder.

 

You are correct in my figure in regards to the planet being wrong. It was inside of Europe.

 

Media is just as much to blame in division, fanaticism and warfare as politicians. Media bias brainwashes the ' less then capable ' thinkers into believing things that just arent true.

 

I'll make no cover-up for the fact I believe there arent many REAL ' Journalists ' left these days and nothing but ' opinion piece ' writers whom have an agenda that usually tied to some philosophy instead of an open-minded perspective. Breath-taking claims? WMD's in Iraq- the media sold it. The Current Stability of the planets economic system is just fine, right? Islam is the religion of ' peace '. Theres no need to worry about the radiation/isotopes that are still leaving Japans reactors in fukashima. Theres a great ' climate change ' going on many scientists have proven it ( and the ones whom say its not happening dont get a page in any paper in comparisons ).

 

Hitlers Propaganda brought about massive conflict. Supposedly ' responsible ' media of today are carrying his torch. Gobbels would be proud.

 

Look no further then a recent shooting in the U.S. . Trayvon Martin.

 

The reasons why he was shot arent even needed to be known. What I saw in the first Media report was ' white guy shoots african american '. To start with, ' African ' and ' American ' represents 2 different nations. Its a divisive term. No different then ' jew ' and ' Aryan '. Why the need to put ' colors ' or race into everything? Are not all human beings equal?

 

When the Media realized there ' error ' to which then never even stated ' sorry we had it wrong ', he was then called a ' white hispanic '. Again, why ' race ' or ' color ' NEEDS to be implemented?

 

Then the protests in the ' African American Community ' start. The death threats to peoples families. The Al Sharpton and Jessie Jacksons come out and start their hate-baiting ( same as the Nazis ) and the Media does everything it can to toss a log on the fire!

 

Didnt Gobbles do the same thing and use the same means/ways to accomplish the deaths of how many millions of people? SURELY, your going to point out the difference if you wish to call this so ' breathtaking '.

 

It didnt stop there though. After the case was over in the courts, MANY instances happened where people were beaten and the phrase ' this is for trayvon! ' was used. It was one race against another.

 

A poor kid just walking home was killed by some idiot.. and its all about ' race '. One witness said he was being follower by a ' creepy assed cracker ', cracker being a ' whip cracker ' and an insinuation to the days of slavery, a ' racist ' claim.. I didnt know Latinos ran plantations and owned slaves, werent they all of european descent?

 

Media incites people to their philosophy. Its absolutely irresponsible and is to be the root cause for a lot of bad things that happen. They dont care weather they are telling the truth or not, their message is the only message that needs to be heard!

[meganiwish]

In case you thought we didn't need to be vigilant, this from a former Labour member of the cabinet.  This week. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24909979 Enoch Powell is alive and well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gkBr-qvo-4