The Gender Agenda: Gaining Momentum

[meganiwish]

This is the theme of today's International Women's Day. I'm not sure I know what it means. The subtext is, 'A modern progressive world needs equality.' Indeed. The increaasing inequalities in our society are leading us back to the 1930s. What do others think?

http://www.internationalwomensday.com/

(PS I do wish people would use the word 'sex', but I fear that battle is lost, and it wouldn't make such a snappy slogan.)

[ilikekicks]

Eesh. I read that article and all I could reflect upon was the girls in Afghanistan whom had acid thrown in their faces. The women still being sold into a marriage by their famalies. Women being stoned to death for supposedly having sex outside of with their husbands.. Theres a long way to go on such a subject.

[meganiwish]

Quite. I don't know that I can see any momentum being gained and I have my doubts about 'focusing on the positive'. By patting ourselves on the back where things are as they should be we run the risk of being part of the problem elsewhere.

[ilikekicks]

This is one of the huge dilemmas I often think about and its part of my thought process That I wish I didnt take too seriously at times ( but I always do and will ). I enjoy liberty and dont like mine being infringed upon. Yet I live in a nation that goes to war all too often and for me, personally, I dont see the reasonign behind it. I counter with certain other things though. Afghanistan : Supposedly it was to go after the Taliban and BinLaden. Sure, whatever. The guy wasnt there. BUT! In the process, Sharia enslavement of a LOT of women was broken. Such was supposedly one of the causes ( slavery ) that my own Nation had a divide and war over. Yet, today, such cannot be mentioned or used as a unifying factor for certain things. I do believe theres a LOT on ' equality ' that needs to be looked at but it needs to be looked at on individual levels and not as ' groups ' pitting one against the other.

[meganiwish]

I think you show what a thoughtful man you are. It's very troubling to have liberty and know that it comes at the cost of other peoples' liberty. We none of us shout enough. Pitting groups against each other - it's known as divide and rule. It's a most intriguing post, ILK.. Please don't stop thinking. The world needs more like you.

[ilikekicks]

I dont believe there will ever be ' true equality ' amongst men/women/races. Not with whats being taught today. In order to have equality, there are boundaries that need to be established. Some would say thats not how equality works, yet it is the main principle of it. An example would be what we do with ourselves. One person might like tattoos. Some might like piercings. Some might like to shave their head. Some might be vegans. Some might be healthy and work out every day. Some might like to study and try to save the world. All of the above could be applied to both men and women. They could be applied to homosexuals, heterosexuals, transexuals, buy-sexuals ( some of us pay for it ). Without involving gender or sexuality, I have a few biases. I will NOT have someone at my house for dinner if they havent bathed in weeks. They could be anything or everything mentioned above, but I will NOT have them. I wont ' respect ' them either. Equality comes from a mutual respect that is EARNED. Therein lies the problem for most of us and most of the discrimination that does happen. People of today are taught to just put out this ' blanket respect ' for everyone. They will make exemption for people like Charles Manson ( serial killers ) or people whom do horrendous things. In doing such, theres no equality to begin with and the thought of such is just that, a ' thought ' and no example is really there. A man in the U.S. whom went from ' Champion ' to ' Evil doer ' could be used to show how ' equality ' in the above example works. Muhammad Ali was a Champion Fighter. When Vietnam started, he was subject to the draft. One would think a Champion in the ring would love to fight in combat but Ali realized theres a difference between putting on gloves and slugging it out in a controlled environment then fighting with guns in a jungle. A comment made by him was ' Aint no V.C. ever called me nigga. '. It was a very true statement. At that point in his life, he probably never even met anyone from Vietnam let alone had anything against them that would cause him to want to take guns to their country and kill them. He saw that mutual co-existence was the way he was going to go about his life. The problem behind such was the U.S. laws were FORCING people into the hatred. Many U.S. veterans came back to the states. They hated ' Gooks ', ' Uncle Ho ', Jane Fonda.. They had a very high resentment of others. Fact is, most of those guys didnt even know where Vietnam was on a map before they went there. Can we expect those people to just ' respect ' anyone and treat them fairly? Will they even know what ' Equality ' is? In all honesty, should they really give a crap about ' equality '? Was it equal that they were drafted while women and other more privy people werent sent to go to some foreign land and get shot at and possibly die? I use the above only as ONE example, but theres many out there. If a place/country/city/state/nation writes a law, is it really going to go into someones core and change their beliefs OR will it just cause more resentment? I was told, when I ran my business, that I couldnt discriminate on whom I hired. I will be upfront and honest, there was NO WAY I could hire a muslim. There was negativity towards my not having any ' white ' employees of the 4 of us working on some very expensive homes. Do I think those home owners would allow me to have an employee, a ' muslim ' walk into their homes and they would trust us to be there? If a law was written saying that contractors workers were all to be viewed as ' the same ', would home owners REALLY follow such a law? I will openly say hell no! Until respect is earned, its worthless and there can never be ' equality '. all the laws and all the textbooks in the world cannot change such. There are many people whom preach about ' mutual respect ' but in reality , it doesnt exist. People have their own belief systems and nobody knows what they are till you get to know them ( scratch the surface ) and see whats beneath. How will there be ' Equality ' for women ( going to be specific here )? To start with, From the conversations I have been a part of and have overheard ( and often walked away from ) with my wife and her ( supposed ) ' friends ', women absolutely hate each other. The terms of bitch, cunt, whore.. It sounds like some ganster rap song. Then there are MEN whom say just as many bad things. Would any of them DARE say such things to the face of Margaret Thatcher and expect to still walk on their own legs with kneecaps still intact? I doubt it. Why is that? Even those whom disagreed with her politically, religiously and for other reasons respected the fact of whom and where/what she is/was. A very remarkable woman whom did ' ok ' in her tenure. She could have done better. She could have done worse. Mother Teresa. Did she do all she could for the poor and the needy? Probably not. Could she have done more, sure. Could she have done much less, absolutely. I care not for religions but anyone whom is willing to go do the missionary work she did, I hope there is a god and shes right beside him for her selfless actions. Again, there cannot be ' Equality ' when Gender, Race, Religion or ' Creed ' is involved. We all need to earn the part of being ' equal ' regardless of whom we are born from, where we live or what creed we go by.

[mlroseplant]

Wow, there are so many thoughts here, I won't even attempt to respond to them all, so I'm going to focus on gender equality.

I agree with you 100% that respect needs to be earned. However, the problem is that most gals need to be twice as good as the guys to earn that same respect in certain professions. Like mine, for instance. ILK, you already know this of course, but I'll mention for the benefit of others that I'm a commercial/industrial electrician. A semi-incompetent male electrician is cussed, but tolerated in my experience. If a female electrician makes one little mistake, she's given the third degree about it, and that mistake may haunt her for a long time. That's just unfair. I don't really offer any ideas about what we need to do about it, but this inequality does exist, outside the bounds of earning one's respect.

[Guest]

A semi-incompetent male electrician is cussed, but tolerated in my experience. If a female electrician makes one little mistake, she's given the third degree about it.

Seen that except the 22 year old girl just out of her apprenticeship was in the right and the 50ish feller who though he knew it all felt very embarrassed all too quickly with an audience that then pointed out many more errors he had made. I made an enemy that day but he was beginning to show he was not as qualified as he/we thought.

Two levels of respect

The first is how we treat people in the street, on the road, in a bar, restaurant. I don't want to be insulted so why insult someone. bump into someone by accident - apologise - it happens.

The second is earned by what we do and how we respond and that goes both ways. Someone may be a wizz at xyz but with a foul mouth?

Equality on any faction will be hard to achieve in totality, the "human nature" to compete, take on a challenge or inventive thinking creates different levels. Cliques become par for the course as a team forms as like "skills" align.

Is a plasterer less skilled than an aerospace technician and who is to say that a company director is qualified? I've done a room and to me it was okay but Ilk would be shaking his head if he saw it.

Too many people slag others off quickly because their capabilities are less or not understood.

This journey has only just begun there is a long way to go. A very long way, abolition of slavery was only a few minutes ago the Suffragettes a heartbeat, in the scheme of things.

Al

[meganiwish]

As ILK points out, there are two issues to do with inequality. One is the extent to which the law allows, or even create, inequality. In theory that should be easy to fix. Given the necessary political will it could be done with the stroke of a pen.The second issue is society's attitude to inequality and how much it will tolerate. That's much harder to change. Currently the world is comfortable with some pretty gross inequalities.

[ilikekicks]

You bring a perspective that I didnt know how to put into words :

Is a plasterer less skilled than an aerospace technician and who is to say that a company director is qualified? I've done a room and to me it was okay but Ilk would be shaking his head if he saw it.

Too many people slag others off quickly because their capabilities are less or not understood.

This journey has only just begun there is a long way to go. A very long way, abolition of slavery was only a few minutes ago the Suffragettes a heartbeat, in the scheme of things.

Al

No way I could design or even know how to get something into outer-space. Then again, theres a good chance the Aerospace guy knows everything about how plaster/lime/lattice works.. but doesnt have the hands for it.

A recent topic was that of women in the military in combat rolls. I know for a fact, My sister could outshoot half the Marines I served with. Shes been hunting and shooting for decades. I know of women whom I served with that were worth their weight in gold and being honest, I wouldnt lip off to them. I learned ONCE to keep my mouth shut to certain ones as they CAN brawl and beat a man down ( Yep. I looked like rocky after he fought Apollo after that one. She could have gone to a beauty pageant right afterwards and probably have won it. ).

Its all on the individual. Were all different.

As ILK points out, there are two issues to do with inequality. One is the extent to which the law allows, or even create, inequality. In theory that should be easy to fix. Given the necessary political will it could be done with the stroke of a pen.The second issue is society's attitude to inequality and how much it will tolerate. That's much harder to change. Currently the world is comfortable with some pretty gross inequalities.

Nepotism runs wild in the local Union halls. Theres laws against it, but the members there plan out when the hiring will happen for apprentices and when their kids will be graduating school. Sure, outsiders take the aptitude and means tests, and they score quite well, but they are seldom selected even though the law states such cannot happen and have for quite a while in my area.

Theres laws in Chicago here in the States that make it 100% illegal to have a firearm yet more people were shot there then in Afghanistan last year. Not killed, but shot.

Theres so many laws stipulating so many things, yet they are ( blatantly ) ignored by so many people. Quill and parchment be damned.

Theres many ' male ' jobs I just couldnt do. I would never make it as a farm hand or construction worker. Smaller jobs, sure! Large projects that require brute strength day in and day out.. I wouldnt last a week. Im sure there are some women out there whom could do it just fine though ( and already do! ).

[mlroseplant]

A recent topic was that of women in the military in combat rolls. I know for a fact, My sister could outshoot half the Marines I served with. Shes been hunting and shooting for decades. I know of women whom I served with that were worth their weight in gold and being honest, I wouldnt lip off to them. I learned ONCE to keep my mouth shut to certain ones as they CAN brawl and beat a man down ( Yep. I looked like rocky after he fought Apollo after that one. She could have gone to a beauty pageant right afterwards and probably have won it. ).

Theres many ' male ' jobs I just couldnt do. I would never make it as a farm hand or construction worker. Smaller jobs, sure! Large projects that require brute strength day in and day out.. I wouldnt last a week. Im sure there are some women out there whom could do it just fine though ( and already do! ).

Slightly off-topic, but I hope it's good for a laugh, anyway (partially because it's 100% true):

I have no problem with a woman who is taller than me. At 5'6" (167cm for everyone else in the world), that's not too uncommon. I have no problem with a woman who is stronger than me. I have no problem with a woman who is smarter than me, and I know many, starting with my own sister. I have no problem with a woman who earns more money than me, or who is more successful than me.

However, even I have my limits. I cannot deal with a woman who can sing lower than me, which is why, much as I want to like her, I just can't deal with Lana Del Rey.

[meganiwish]

Theres laws in Chicago here in the States that make it 100% illegal to have a firearm yet more people were shot there then in Afghanistan last year. Not killed, but shot.

Theres so many laws stipulating so many things, yet they are ( blatantly ) ignored by so many people. Quill and parchment be damned.

I think I said that. Laws rarely change attitudes or behaviour. It's easy to make laws, it's hard to change attitudes/behaviour.