How about higher heels for MEN's shoes?

[genebujold]

Let's face it - despite attempts by various designers to raise heels on men's shoes over the years, the over-conservative mainstream outlets refuse to carry any such products. And despite increasing demand, most outlets are limiting their selection of women's shoes to sizes to 10 or 11 and below, despite the fact that many mainstream women's shoe manufacturers, like Franco Sarto and Sudini, have increased their production lines to handle sizes up to 13.

The question is - Why?

Are they afraid these products won't sell? Judging by the proliferation of online fetishwear sites marketing larger-sized (13 to 17!) heels to men, I don't think it's for a lack of a market.

Then again, perhaps it is. Perhaps there are really four markets, with a large void between them.

First, there's the contemporary no-heel market for men. Then there's the cowboy boot market, which sport heels around 2 inches. Then there's the fetish market, which rarely carries anything below 5 inches, and all of which look like (or are) women's shoes. Finally, there's the mainstream woman's shoe market, which carries all styles and heel heights, but in sizes most men cannot wear.

I believe the time is ripe to populate the middle with a wide variety of heels specifically made for and marketed to men that from 2 inches to 6 inches, in classy styles that run the gender continuum, from a higher-heeled cowboy boot to men's sandals with either chunk or tapered, but higher, heels, to more elegant leather boots with tapered, or even spike heels. They needn't look particularly masculine, but if the market is to take hold of the majority of men, they can't be patently feminine, either.

I believe that move has already started, way back in the 70's. Unfortunately, the higher-heeled men's shoe from that era never really caught on, and the style quickly became associated (and trapped) as society's fashions moved on.

Since then, we've seen various attempts at increasing heel heights on men's shoes, most notably with cowboy boots (I've seen 'em in Western wear stores with heels up to 3 inches), punk boots (80's), and it's more recent descendant, the Goth look.

Today, there's another source which might prove fruitful, to a point. The latin community has long been known for a heightened level of sensuality as compared to others. Perhaps that's why much of their men's clothing was significantly more showy, with various frills normally found only on women's clothes.

And it's the Latin community which markets, sells, and wears what are known as Cuban heels, like this 1-3/4" cuban heel oxford from International Male:

http://www.internationalmale.com

The style of this shoe, with it's closer fit and tapered toes, is considerably more feminine than most men's shoes, and the heels are similarly tapered, not just cut at the back but also tapered on the sides, as well - a style point previously found only in women's shoes.

Still, heels less than 2-1/2 inches are nearly indisinguishable from walking barefoot on the cold, hard ground. Although I like the more feminine styling of the shoe in general, I would like to see the heels rise quite a bit.

So, I doubled the heighth of the heels, and would like everyone's feedback on the result:

What are your thoughts on the rather large fashion void of higher-heeled, more gender-neutral shoes in larger, men's sizes? More to the point, would you rather see more men's shoes with higher heels and more feminine styling, or would your rather see mainstream women's shoes (many of which are actually quite masculine, except for their higher heels) in larger sizes?

Or perhaps you'd rather see an entirely different group of higher-heeled footware designed (and sized) to be worn by anyone, regardless of their gender?

I'm eager to read your opinions!

[mk4625]

Let's face it - despite attempts by various designers to raise heels on men's shoes over the years, the over-conservative mainstream outlets refuse to carry any such products. And despite increasing demand, most outlets are limiting their selection of women's shoes to sizes to 10 or 11 and below, despite the fact that many mainstream women's shoe manufacturers, like Franco Sarto and Sudini, have increased their production lines to handle sizes up to 13.

The question is - Why?

Probably because people like my dad would wear them. He actually owned several pairs of "disco" shoes during the 1970s.

[Slim]

The thing is the womens boots of today were the men's of yesterday. Before the 1900 Sears was selling mens boots with 2" concave (Louis) heels out of their catalog. In his book on cowboy boots Lucchese (Lucchese boot Co.) talks about the old high heel boys. These guys wore tight fitting boots with 4" or higher, very tapered heels resulting in a near vertical instep, all custom made. Hard to get styles like that today unless you go to Paul Bond or Western Ranch? and spend lots of money. If you can wear womens "sizes", then you have no problem at all finding "men's" style boots. Heels will never be popular with men, except for the few who have the guts to wear them. I would just as soon it remain so.

[Robert]

I would like to see that the mainstream women's shoe market is enlarged in more sizes than you can get now. Perhaps you know that the European girls are tall and the generations to come will be still taller. Also their feet are big, and will be bigger in the coming years. Most stores in Holland are selling size 42Eur, 8UK, 11US, while 10 years ago the largest size you could get was size 41. I hear those girls complaining on messageboards (18 years of age with size 43 or 44) that there aren't cute shoes in the stores. Even for them the shoe industry will not make larger shoeware which is very pity but also pity for us men. The special stores where those girls and women and I can buy their shoes, you can count them on one hand. Robert

[Firefox]

The lack of mainstream outlet's not stocking heels for men has nothing to do with their conservatism. It's governed by the market, the buyers, and the trends in the market identified by the buyers. Heels for men wont sell because, like it or not, on current trends, only 5% or so of men would be interested in buying them if they were available. Schuh tried some higher mens heels and platform styles around 1999, but they didn't sell well and they probably made a loss on that stock. 5% is not good enough on the mainstream price and regular outlet model. You need 30-40% of the market that is at least going to take an interest. One gets a false impression of the market at boards like this of course. Nobody I know personally has the same interest as me, aside from the people I met here, and I know a lot of people on close terms (200 plus?). I like the extended cuban heels you did, but you need to alter the vamp and instep slope as well. I can have a go using paint shop pro if you want.

[sscotty727]

Several years ago, flat "mules" became popular with the women here (they look like backless tennis shoes). Around that time, I thought they were "cool" looking and looked for something like it in mens. At that time (atleast in Eastern USA) they didn't have anything in mens. I bought a few "women's" that could pass as a mans. A year later I started seeing men's popup and I bought a few and even wore them to work. At first I got some strange stares and even had a few guys ask me where I got them. Not until this year have I started seeing ALOT of men here wearing them (not just "younger" guys, but middle-age and professionals too). My point is that I disagree that they would "never" sell. Yes initially there wouldn't be that many guys willing to wear shoes considered to be out of the "norm", however I think once out there and popularity grew, they would become "mainstream". It would take men like us though to push the limits and wear them to finally get more men to wear them though. Scotty

[Dr. Shoe]

Most fads start with a few people doing or wearing something unusual and others joining in until it becomes mainstream, women in trousers a classic example. If you tried to sell trousers to women in 1900 yoiu would have found a 5% (or less) market, whereas now....?

[sscotty727]

I wonder if we could find a few celebraties (especially though considered "hunks") that would wear heels publically if that would start a craze.

[Firefox]

The flat backless shoes are not a very good example. It's a small style change, and the shoes are flat which is a major feature of men's fashion. With women wearing trousers and many men wearing long hair/earings I think society in general is clinging to a few straws of clothing which distinguish men from women if all else fails, and high heels is one of them. Sleeveless tops is another.

Convincing impersonation of the other gender is sort of threatening to society, as seen by some, as it interferes with the perceived ability to mate or find a partner sucessfully. I have seen this point emphasised by other people. That is why TV's or even gays sometimes get a hostile reception. I hasten to add it is a perceived ability. In actual fact, it wont affect anything, but some people are really very unintelligent, and they have limited capacity to appreciate such niceties.

I think it needs someone quite influential like David Beckham to wear heels. Non of my everyday friends who might have been closet wearers have taken courage from me and done it, so I conclude there can't be that many people really interested. A few people I have met via the internet have however broken their personal barriers which is good.

Even if it is someone like Beckham, how far would that get us? I mean, it's not as though everyone who wanted to wear a sarong went out and did so after Beckham showed how it could be done.

Anyway, enough of that. Here's my reshaped cuban heel. It still needs some work, but you can see the idea:

[new_look]

i think noone knew what a serong was til he wore it. the thing is is beckham was to wear such an item, for say a young lad like me getting stick off friends, itd be nice to say yeah, youre fav footballer does it too... and he has a wife.... could get them thinking. I think enough people are confused when they see an image theyd associate with perhaps someone gay (when i wear my heels) whilst im walking with my gf Jade. I know fox is right when he says that most men wouldnt wanna do it in case their image would be passed as a step towards the other gender. I just wish we coud come up with some master plan to 'boost' our image. Could give the legends that be on this site something to think about Pity someone like the Sun wouldnt take th eopportunity to be positive... daz

[Firefox]

That's a problem with the tabloids though. They have a large readership of clever people coupled with a large readership of thickos. Everything has to be pitched at a relatively low level. The clever ones take it with a pinch of salt and have a laugh while the others nod knowingly in agreement. It's well constructed journalism which appeals to everyone, and thus sells lots of newspapers. Sadly, it's not much use for exploring complex or groundbreaking issues.

[sscotty727]

Hi Firefox, I agree it is a major step from a backless shoe to a high heel, however there still was a "stigma" for a while that this was a "woman's" shoe. I also wouldn't propose starting out with a 3 or 4 inch heel for men, but more subtle like the one you modified. Slowly over time the heel could get a little higher with little notice. Also, an athlete isn't a great example, here in the US we have people like Dennis Rodman who is just viewed as being "odd" and "out there". Same with musicians (David Bowie for example). I would suggest you get someone more main stream (Harrison Ford, Arnold, Pierce Brosnan, even Hugh Grant, etc). Someone like that wouldn't be viewed as being slightly odd, but rather could be on to something. Again, just small subtle changes over time would be acceptable. I know it would take alot longer than any of us would like, and I don't see people like us waiting either. But for mainstream acceptance, it would work. Scotty PS: I really like the heels you made Firefox, I would buy and wear them in a minute!

[Firefox]

Thanks Scotty As Gene' says they are marketed by International Male at the link he gives. You could buy a pair at 1-3/4" and use a 1-1/4" heel addition and a shank bend to give you 3" heels in a timeless style. If you are not confident to do it yourself, a good shoemaker/repair person will do it for you. Adding 1 1/4 is more than I'd usually recommnend, but in lower lifts such as this conversion it will work better. And, I'd defy anyone to make a fuss about such a shoe. They'd be a very sad person if they did. This is the kind of "transition" shoe which will enable you to wear any style you want in your circles after a few months.

[Rob]

The backless shoes story is interesting. The more I think about it, many fashions that start out as woman’s fashions slowly move over to also become a men’s fashion a year or two later. When shopping for a new pair of jeans in Top Man a few months ago, I noticed quite a few styles with quite a large flair - far bigger than you would expect on a man's jean. But of course girls have been wearing jeans like this for a few years now. As mention, someone like David Beckham would be an idea roll model to start a trend for heels on guys (in the UK that is). However, as Scotty says these trends evolve very slowly (for guys at least). If Beckham appeared in 4 inch heels, he would be ridiculed by the tabloids and very few would take up the trend. But if he started appearing in manly 2 inch heels, it is more likely that others would follow, and over a few years they could become quite mainstream for men. (Then you could start thinking about higher.) Victoria Beckham would probably encourage him as she is obviously a heel fanatic, and seams to quite like him wearing femine items of clothing. So if you’re looking for a plan here is a little story that may be of interest. In the 70’s, Lotus, the car UK sports car manufactures, had little budget for advertising, but wanted to get big exposure for their Esprit. (They couldn’t afford to give away cars as a large manufacture would.) They decided to target many different areas of exposure. One was the team who made the James Bond films. Each morning they parked an Esprit outside the gates of the studio where preparation work was going on. For months the movie team drove past and saw this car every day. (Slowly these things sink in subconsciously.) Eventually talk within the team was of giving James Bond a new car for the next movie, and several of them mentioned the cool car they had all seen parked outside each day. And the rest is history! (The white car that turning into a submarine for those that don’t know.) So if anyone knows the places that Mr Beckham (or even Victoria) hang out, maybe you should hang out there in heels. As someone who has pushed the fashion boundaries before, bit by bit his/her mind will become more open to the idea of a man wearing heels. Thinking about it, maybe Victoria would be the best target:- “David, I’ve seen a few guys wearing heels and am starting to think they look good on guys!” Sorry for the long post!!

[new_look]

in reality noone would even get close to either of them. but it would be nice to have some backing from people in which the closed minded look up to eg beckham

[genebujold]

Heels will never be popular with men, except for the few who have the guts to wear them. I would just as soon it remain so.

Hi, Slim - your comments are a valuable addition to the fashion history of entire classes and countries of men who've worn heels.

I'm curious as to why you would prefer that heel-wearing remain unpopular "except for the few who have the guts to wear them." Is it a pride/exclusivity issue concerning your own gutsy heel-wearing, or are you opposed to guys wearing heels in general? Or is it that you feel guys shouldn't wear heels unless they're gutsy, "manly men?"

Just curious...

One thing I've noticed... Although a small crop of men secure in their masculinity has indeed surfaced to the point where they're willing and able to wear pretty much whatever the heck they want while dodging flack from all sides (although usually limited to heeled boots and pirate-style ruffled shirts and either kilts or the skirts now being made for men), most ground in terms of societal acceptance of men wearing what current society considers "women's clothing" has been gained by the more effeminant who've pushed the boundaries back layer by layer.

Regardless, thank you for the significant addition my collection of how clothing styles have changed over the years, specifically, how rapidly some traditionally men's clothing has become relabled as "women's-only clothing" while other traditionally men's clothing has become acceptable as women's clothing, as well.

[new_look]

id be willing to bet thathalf the women heel lovers would take men wearing heels as an invasion of their fashion advantages. Most women know that they attract more attention to you, and make them look sexier with posture changes. Thus why most girls wear them whist the same time saying they hurt their feet etc... Its amazing how 'snotty' it makes some people too. Countless times in my bank has a youngish slut come stamping through my bank in stilettos with her nose glued to the ceiling anytime anyone dares to look. I think these type wouldnt welcome men getting the same feelings of power and confidence, because they enjoy the advantages exist only for women.

[Slim]

genebujold: I think wearing heels has always taken guts for a guy, even for the old hh boys. I've been doing it for over 20 years and it still does for me. BTW I wore heels to work (boots like your picture) for years with no problems. Part of the reason for this is I meet Jenny's criteria for men (hight, body mass and foot size). I really don't like the idea of bigger guys sharing my advantage. I feel that if you can't wear a regular off the shelf womens size, maybe you shouldn't. As far as cd'ing goes, I don't like it. I have no desire to fool anyone. What you see is what you get (an old billy goat)!

[sscotty727]

Hi Slim, Actually I don't meet the "requirements" for wearing heels either (5'8", size US woman's 11, but overweight). Even though I am overweight, I do have alot of muscle mass so it doesn't show as bad as if I didn't have any muscle mass. Also, instead of a thin heel (which would never work on me), I opt for the thick heel. I also wear a mustache and goatee, so could never be confused for a woman. However, I do think I can get away with it because I wear longer pants the hide the heel. I for one wouldn't tell anyone just because you don't fit a certain body type you are not allowed to wear something you like. I would say you should dress to look your best. Just as I wouldn't wear speedos to the beach, I wouldn't wear 6" stilleto pumps outside either. BUT if anyone else wanted to, it would be their decision and I would respect that. Scotty

[genebujold]

The lack of mainstream outlet's not stocking heels for men has nothing to do with their conservatism. It's governed by the market, the buyers, and the trends in the market identified by the buyers. Heels for men wont sell because, like it or not, on current trends, only 5% or so of men would be interested in buying them if they were available.

Schuh tried some higher mens heels and platform styles around 1999, but they didn't sell well and they probably made a loss on that stock. 5% is not good enough on the mainstream price and regular outlet model. You need 30-40% of the market that is at least going to take an interest. One gets a false impression of the market at boards like this of course. Nobody I know personally has the same interest as me, aside from the people I met here, and I know a lot of people on close terms (200 plus?).

I like the extended cuban heels you did, but you need to alter the vamp and instep slope as well. I can have a go using paint shop pro if you want.

Hi, Firefox - I saw you're already gone for it (the image modification) in a later post, so "!ti rof oG" (how's that for hindsight?)

In the meantime, your highly insightful comments really got me thinking about the market dynamics as a whole - as well as the significant differences in the dynamics with respect to gender.

I would like to bring up a few points - I hope you don't mind and ask your forgiveness for countering you in advance. Hopefully, you'll understand it's not personal, but merely in the interest of increased understanding of this animal so that we might best know how to go about effecting the appropriate level / direction of change.

You state that "only 5% or so of men would be interested." While I agree that figure is accurate for current designs and masculine preferences (even for feminine items), I disagree it would be accurate with respect to what I originally proposed. I believe that a considerably larger percentage would not only be interested, but would actually buy - but only if the changing syles were marketed appropriately.

Unfortunately, while there's an untapped market among men, there's a considerable disincentive with respect to women who might also have purchased the item - provided they learned before purchasing that men were also purchasing the item in any significant quantities.

There's the traditional model which states that "sales (numbers) are inversely proportional to a function of the price." In reality, many firms make their heels at very low cost yet sell their heels for very high prices (usually some form of a natural log). Why? Brand identification. Gucci. It says it all. They make money hand over fist, sell a surprisingly large volume compared to their average price, yet their ad budge is only moderately above average. In short - they make a lot of money, whereas other mfgs offering essentially the same quality and styles operate on some pretty slim margins.

How does this relate to heels for men?

First, the demand for large-size heels (ostensibly for men) is high, as evidenced by the prolific sales experienced by the size 11 to 17 (US)group of fetish heel-makers.

Second, the demand by men to wear contemporary women's heels is also considerably higher than previously thought, as revealed by employees of both Nordstroms and Payless who handle a significantly large number of males trying to find heels in a variety of fashions (other than the pathetically patent FMP "fashions" you'll find at "howkewl" and the like).

Third, mainstream heel manufacturers are wanting to get into the larger-size heel market. They've said so, and they're making them, but the marketers, the middlemen, and the distrubutors aren't buying them. The few exceptions among mainstream channels include Nordstroms, Payless, and a few others, but even they're operating predominantly on a "barely pushing the envelope" basis, hence their limited selection above size 10, and their absolute limit at size 13.

Why? Simple - It's not that the guys wouldn't buy higher-heeled mainstream shoes if they were available in their sizes. It's not that the manufacturers aren't willing to make them. It's not that there aren't enough (or wouldn't be enough) demand on the part of guys who'd like to begin wearing higher heels.

Rather, it's the significant disincentive induced by the predominant heel-buyer on the planet - women.

As soon as women (in general) perceive a style as being adopted by men, they will cross it off their Christmas wish lists.

Why is this?

Differentiation. Let's face it - they do this when a style is adopted by more than a comfortable minority of women - they'll only do it sooner if it's adopted by a recognizable contingent of men.

I guarantee you that if skirted men became the fashion norm throughout corporate America, you wouldn't find a skirted female on the planet.

Women enjoy being distinguished. If they can't obtain that in the business world or academica, they'll obtain it through fashion (many obtain it through more than one means). The last thing women want is another nail in the coffin of differentiation.

Men, on the other hand, enjoy a fair degree of conformity. On the whole, they become unsettled at the idea of being too different that other men. Conformity is a strong motivator among men, and is the essential reason behind the idea of the uniform, as well as the limited variations in style among business attire.

Take a moment to ponder - if dark suits, wingtips and medium ties are in order, simply wearing a narrow tie, or slick shoes, or a lighter-colored suit will put you out of the running.

It's that narrow.

On the other hand, women's fashion trends run along much broader lines. Within the same industry or company, a woman can be 100% accepted whether she wears a mid skirt and dress loafers, a pant suit and pumps, or a longer skirt (or pants) and well-heeled boots.

The truth of the matter is, most women like being distinct from men, especially in the one realm most women feel is open to them as an avenue of expression - fashion.

And many women derive a considerable degree of identity, comfort, and/or strength from that broad arena of style.

When men intrude on any particular niche, that style is generally quick to become taboo with the rest of the feminine population.

If a particular style appears to migrate to the general boundaries of male fashion (as happened with bell-bottomed pants in the 70's), the women change their style preference, and adopt such responses as narrow boot-leggings. It wasn't until bell-bottoms were long again taboo among men that women decided to pick up the style again in the mid 1990's.

The clothing designers, manufacturers, and distributors have little choice but to cooperate with these vagaries in demand, as it's their necks (paychecks) that are on the line. Let's face it - women spend a significantly larger number of fashion dollars than men!

If a fashion wave involving men wearing spike-heeled 4-inch stilleto boots swept the world, women would rapidly differentiate themselves by wearing chunk-heeled boots, instead. If men decided that one-piece bathing suits were in vogue, women would adopt the two-piecer as their de-facto standard. If men went for skirts (not just kilts) in a big way, women would split between the dress and pants/slacks - but few would continue buying skirts.

They want to be different from men. They want to be feminine.

Now, in response to the feminists (who're by now breathing fire down my train of words), I say this - here are five definitions of feminism as espoused by the members of your own movement:

1. Yes, You Are - So much for the dress code.

feminism n (1895) 1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes 2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests -- feminist n or adj -- feministic adj

Above, the dictionary definition of feminism -- the entire dictionary definition of feminism. It is quite straightforward and concise. If you believe in, support, look fondly on, hope for, and/or work towards equality of the sexes, you are a feminist.

Source: http://www.earlygirl.com/youare.shtml

And the rest of the definition from that source is quite good, telling, revealing, entertaining, and enlightening.

2. The Biblical (or anti-Biblical) and Muslim (or anti-Muslim) feminist radicals: http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2003/0318.html

I'd copy and paste the contents here, but I'm quite certain HHMP would be sued for allowing me to do so...

Nevertheless, Wendy provides a very poignant and amazingly self-examining expose' on the nature of how feminism differs across cultural lines.

3. About all I'll provide for the following is that they believe their cause to be just and true. the only other thing I would mention is that if their fathers fulfilled the Biblical model of being "loving, mutually-submitting fathers who loved their wives and their children as Christ loved the church, the entire concept of feminism would probably not exist....)

http://www.iastate.edu/~wsprogram/news/newsletter_1.html

4. There's a poster from One Angry Girl Designs, a company in Berkeley, Calif., that came up with an incredibly novel concept to end the debate over feminism. The company issued the "I'm not a feminist but ... " poster in order to avoid the debate over the definition of feminism, while still maintaining the integrity of human rights through a simple wish list.

"I'm not a feminist, but ...

o I appreciate the right to choose my government representatives.

o I enjoy the option of wearing pants or shorts if I want.

o I'm pleased that I was allowed to learn to read and write.

o It's always useful to be able to open a bank account and own property in my name.

o I like knowing that husband or boyfriend cannot legally beat me.

o It's really swell to keep the money I earn.

See, that's not too scary at all.

Is it?

Therefore, I'd like to modify the list, as follows:

"I'm not a emasculated, but ...

o I appreciate the right to choose my government representatives.

o I enjoy the option of wearing heels, skirts, or dresses if I want.

o I'm pleased that I was allowed to learn to read and write.

o It's always useful to be able to open a bank account and own property in my name.

o I like knowing that wife or or girlfriend cannot legally beat me.

o It's really swell to keep the money I earn.

See, that's not too scary at all.

Is it?

Let's see - I changed just five rather inane words, yet I'm quite sure the feminazi gender police will be banging on my door in less than 73.29 seconds after this appears online...

5. Then you find the fresh approach, which really underscores the innocense of an untainted, youthful perspective to this whole mess:

http://www.feminist.com/askamy/feminism/fem180.html

The bottom line is that when it comes to power and leadership, historically, sociologically, anthropologicly, men tend to differentiate, whereas women tend to conform.

Why? Because that's the arena where men, on average, can get away with it, and an arena where women, on average, lose when they try.

When it comes to fashion, however, historically, sociologically, anthropologicly, men tend to conform, whereas women tend to differentiate.

Why? Because that's the arena where women, on average, can get away with it, and an arena where men, on average, lose when they try.

So what can be done about it?

First, wear what you want to wear! If that means heels and a skirt, go for it!

Second, be mindful of market forces. If you (and a sizeable number of others) are trying to do something "outrageous," like wearing women's dress/suits to work, realize that by doing so you will only slightly increase men's demands for such attire by a few percent, while simultaneously tubing womens' desire for such attire by a sizeable percentage.

Since the original market for that style predominantly belonged to women, the manufacturers will declare it a bust and pull it off the market.

This market reaction isn't likely to change until manufacturers begin tracking their market stats by their buyers' sizes / genders.

For example, if skirts for men became vogue, and the acceptable style was a belted ankle-length pleated skirt in colors ranging from sage green to black, the total market would rapidly diminish, whereas the market segment for skirts with waists between 34 and 40 might actually increase.

Unfortunately, most marketers, manufacturers, and distributors care less about market segments than they do whole-market trends - especially when it comes to gender issues.

Why?

Because they realize that if Brand X continued catering to the rising men's market while the women's market was rapidly diminishing due to a lack of demand, then Brand X would be in serious trouble with respect to their being able to sell anything to the women's market. "Gucci? Oh, no - I don't shop Gucci anymore - not since I keep seeing guys walking around town wearing Gucci 4-inch heels in what's an obvious 13..."

Because to a female, clothing differentiation is a selling point. It's a weapon. It's a way for them to say "I'm different. I'm special." When guys (in general) tread upon that, females (in general) get nervous and go shopping for different styles.

The bottom line is that society, in general, isn't ready to see mainstream male characters in a skirt, much less in high heels. And if they do in any larger numbers, the female half of our species will protect it's differential individuality and drop that particular style, if not the principly-associated brands, like a hot potatoe - thus tubing any hopes of profit dreamed by that manufacturer of selling their products to men.

So what's the solution?

First, the cycle of what women use as differentiation.

In general, women are soft, sexy, curvy creatures. If all us guys try to be like that we'll wind up forcing them to be cold, hard, and heartless.

So don't do it!

Instead, wear what you want to wear, but define your own style. Don't try and appear like something you see in Vogue. Just because you're wearing heels or a skirt doesn't mean you have to complete the People-inspired picture by wearing hose or a mini-skirt. Rather, be yourself! If you (men) liked climbing trees and building forts as a kid, then wear heels that reflect that part of you.

Realize it's OK to mix gender styles!

If you wear heels, you're a cross-dresser. That doesn't mean you have to go whole-hog and try to "pass," even if it's just from the waist down. You can wear heels as a man - nearly all societies on this planet have accepted the fact that women will wear what 50 years ago was "MEN'S" clothing, and most have accepted the fact that men are simply beginning to do the same. Even mainstream corporations like IBM and the U.S. Department of Defence have rules on the books providing for tolerance of this bending of "traditional" gender norms (even though if you go back just a few decades you will find those "norms" significantly different than they are today).

I believe TV and other forms of media (magazines, movies) have been large influence in the stereotype of what constitutes "male dress" and "female dress." In short, it was popularized by the movie industry between the 10's and 60's, and didn't begin changing to any significant degree until the Woodstock video hit the streets. The few differential changes in clothing shown there awakened an entire generation to the fact that many men look good in traditionally feminine attire!

But that's the subject of another post...

In the meantime, I should say here that this entire concept also applies to women. If you're a tomboy, don't conform to the classic leather spike pump and skirt motif. Wear pants! Or at the very least, wear boots with chunkier heels.

Or, (gulp!) wear whatever you find most comfortable.

Second (this is for the men) - don't go overboard. Realize that just because you like wearing heels and possibly other traditionally women's clothing you needn't try an pass as a woman. Society says "only women can wear heels and a skirt." If you're trying to pass simply because you like wearing heels and a skirt, you're conforming as much as any traditional member of either sex with respect to what society expects of you!

Stop conforming - be yourself.

The founder of Total Clothing Rights has a very interesting story to tell of how he went throug the traditional, 100% transvestite (and fairly cute) "dress to kill" phase before he finally realized he wasn't interested in dressing like a woman, but rather, he was simply interested in wearing skirts and perhaps a few other articles of women's clothing. He realized the only reason he went "whole hog" is because that's what society expects. Society says "if you're wearing slightly taller heels, well, ok. If you're wearing stillettos, you're, well, weird. If you're wearing a skirt, too, then you're really weird."

But if you're dressed as a woman, "well, we'll turn our heads, as you must be one of those disgendered individuals who've finally found themselves."

To that, I say, Whatever! And pbbllltththhh!

The bottom line is that society is just now beginning to be ready for a man who chooses to break the Hollywood stereotype burned into the minds of millions around the world by wearing (gasp!) skirts, dresses, and heels.

It simply doesn't pay to try and convince the listeners that this garb was in the traditional male realm for about, oh, 5,000 years or so prior to the late 1600's, early 1700s.

Bottom line - realize the problem isn't so much the lack of overal market demand on the part of men for heels, in general, but rather, the projected decline in segmental markets if those segments should be "invaded" by any perceptable percentage of the male population.

Thus, if we are EVER to be successful in our endeavors, we must (in public, at least), continue to push the barriers, not once in a while, but often, but also in a gentle and incremental way that gives societal norms the time to adapt and respond appropriately to this long overdue change in societal dress.

Check out his nails...

Please forgive my wordiness, and thank you for reading this far!

With that, I give pause and sincerely invite inspired discourse!

Have a nice day!

[Firefox]

I don't agree with your basic premise that if men are wearing it, women get turned off it. If that's the case why did women want to start wearing trousers? When men started wearing earings, did women stop wearing them? Why do many women enjoy wearing jeans trainers and baseball caps; very much originally a mans uniform? I do agree with the idea people should wear what they want though. If more men did start wearing heels, I don't believe it would have an affect on women's desires to do so, on the basis of the long hair/earings example. If anything they would want to wear heels more to catch up in the height stakes!

[Slim]

ff, gene: I guess I agree with both of you. I think what we are saying is if your going to do it, do it right. Jenny's guidelines seem good to me. sscotty727, if I saw you wearing heels I would be one of the first to support you. I have been asked by many men about wearing heels, but so far I'm about the only one around here who does. In short I would say it has to be something that comes from you, your thing, not some fad or fashion.

[genebujold]

It would take men like us though to push the limits and wear them to finally get more men to wear them though.

Scotty

Sounds great - let's wear them! Let's wear them out!

And perhaps, let's wear them so far out of style that women will think twice before they consider any particular style of heel as belonging to "their" genre.

[sscotty727]

If I may interject a little: From my own personal observations, I don't think it is more a women fighting men off from various fashions, but mostly men being afraid to wear them. Most men would associate wearing heels or skits or anything else in women's fashion as being "girly" and "soft", i.e. being afraid of being looked upon as being "gay". Case in point, when two women friends meet, they hug. Some men/woman friends also hug (as long as it is not misinterprated as a pass). However, when two men meet, (atlteast in Western culture), they do NOT hug because that would be "gay". I already stated a few years ago about wanting to wear toe rings. I did everything to hide the fact I was wearing them, when the doorbell rang I would run to put on shoes or socks to hide it. When I finally decided who cares, I stared wearing them around my sister-in-law who visits us frequently. Zero negative reaction even thought I was nervous inside. When that went well, I stared wearing them out in public in sandals. At first again I was nervous but no one paid that much attention. Even if someone looked as I walked past, again they didn't look long and gave no negative reaction. The perceived reaction was in my mind, not in them. Again, my first day on the top wearing my new 1" heels, I was nervous. One one paid attention or said a thing. A few weeks later, I upped to a 2" heel afraid to even sit down. After a few weeks wearing them even with people could see the heels, no one said anything bad. It was in my mind and in my nervousness, not theirs. This week I decided to get longer pants so I could wear my 3 1/2" heels. Can anyone noticed my new heels? I have no idea, but no one stopped or said anything to me. This weekend I wore them everyday, even around my sister-in-law. I even said so the heels showed and she could see. She never asked "Are those women's boots?". She didn't say or do anything negative. She also didn't run out and say "I better ditch all my boots cause he is wearing them". My point of all this is, the main obsticle I think we need to get past is not that "they are against us, they won't allow us to wear them", but rather, men won't normally wear anything that will make them look "girlish" for fear of being called "gay". The way I see to do this is to start off with little changes implemented over time. A more shaply shoe, a subtle heel (maybe 1 to 1 1/2 instead of the current 1/2"). Once that is accepted, you up it a little more, etc. For those guys (like us) who don't give a care about what people think of us, then I say we just go for it and wear whatever we want. Lastly, I think the main reason you don't see very large shoe sizes for heels is very simple, supply and demand. Remember, stilleto heels are mainly manufactored for women, not men (although I am sure they realize "some" men buy them too). There just simply isn't enough "demand" from women for the larger heels, or you would see stores carrying them. Women with that large of a foot tend to be tall and don't wear very high heels that would make them even more tall, therefore the "demand" from women for heels that size just isn't as big as demand for heels in sizes that are smaller, i.e. shorter women that want the extra hight (my wife is 5'2", so all her footware is geared at making her taller). Scotty

[sscotty727]

Thanks Slim, Even though I don't fit the "model" for wearing heels, I think you can wear heels as long as you are fashionable with it. For be being slightly overweight and a masculine face (mustache and goatee), chunky boots with long pants goes very well. I look and feel better (matter of fact, I think I look slimer when I look in the mirror). For someone younger and thiner, perhaps a thiner heel and maybe even a skirt would look good. I think there is a balance between what you like to wear and knowing what looks good on you. For that, it sounds like you and I are both doing exactly that. Scotty

[genebujold]

The flat backless shoes are not a very good example. It's a small style change, and the shoes are flat which is a major feature of men's fashion. With women wearing trousers and many men wearing long hair/earings I think society in general is clinging to a few straws of clothing which distinguish men from women if all else fails, and high heels is one of them. Sleeveless tops is another.

Convincing impersonation of the other gender is sort of threatening to society, as seen by some, as it interferes with the perceived ability to mate or find a partner sucessfully. I have seen this point emphasised by other people. That is why TV's or even gays sometimes get a hostile reception. I hasten to add it is a perceived ability. In actual fact, it wont affect anything, but some people are really very unintelligent, and they have limited capacity to appreciate such niceties.

I think it needs someone quite influential like David Beckham to wear heels. Non of my everyday friends who might have been closet wearers have taken courage from me and done it, so I conclude there can't be that many people really interested. A few people I have met via the internet have however broken their personal barriers which is good.

Even if it is someone like Beckham, how far would that get us? I mean, it's not as though everyone who wanted to wear a sarong went out and did so after Beckham showed how it could be done.

Anyway, enough of that. Here's my reshaped cuban heel. It still needs some work, but you can see the idea:

First of all, terrific job on the transgendered shoe! Just the right rotation and proportions!

Ahhh... the sleevless tops issue... Personally, I address that by wearing tank tops to the gym. Beyond that, it's either too cold outside (winter) or too cold insider (Spring, Summer, and Fall) here in vegas to wear sleeveless tops for more than an hour or so.

As for a D-Beckian experiance, while it's not entirely unheard of, the few times celebs did publically play that personna, it didn't exactly last.

Consider Milton Berle...

[tallguyinheels]

Scooty:

I don't think it is more a women fighting men off from various fashions, but mostly men being afraid to wear them.

I agree, I have to admit I am not a reglar public wear of heels... I have the problem of not easily finding heels that are not extreme in my size(14).

How ever about 3 years ago I started wearing women's low rise jeans - and I get nothing but compliments. - like men's shoes - men's jeans are dull and ordinary - or youth jeans are to0 baggy and not appropriate for a middle aged man.

[tallguyinheels]

Scooty:

I don't think it is more a women fighting men off from various fashions, but mostly men being afraid to wear them.

I agree, I have to admit I am not a reglar public wear of heels... I have the problem of not easily finding heels that are not extreme in my size(14).

How ever about 3 years ago I started wearing women's low rise jeans - and I get nothing but compliments. - like men's shoes - men's jeans are dull and ordinary - or youth jeans are to0 baggy and not appropriate for a middle aged man.

[tallguyinheels]

Scooty:

I don't think it is more a women fighting men off from various fashions, but mostly men being afraid to wear them.

I agree, I have to admit I am not a reglar public wear of heels... I have the problem of not easily finding heels that are not extreme in my size(14).

How ever about 3 years ago I started wearing women's low rise jeans - and I get nothing but compliments. - like men's shoes - men's jeans are dull and ordinary - or youth jeans are to0 baggy and not appropriate for a middle aged man.

[new_look]

in response to the lengthy post on p1, id say that not all women are against it. My gf for example encourages me to wear them and is happy for me. I think some women could be a bit jealous. for those who read my topic a bit ago about women moaning about 2' killer heels hurting feet etc, itd be fun to know what they think about a man easily wearing 4 or 5 inch shoes. i agree with the point too that most men wouldnt dare cos of been riduculed etc.. but im getting to the point where as long as its not round my family etc, i dont care what people think. Its my life, my choices and if i enjoy wearing stilettos, .. then i will. END TRANS. Daz