hh&c fan

The boots you showed are said to be made in the 1930s by a guy named Sal Gervasio but there is no proof for that. You can read a bit more here:

http://thebootfetishist.blogspot.com/2010/03/betty-page-boots.html

and much more in issue #13 of Bootlovers.com. There you can also find the whole gallery of these boots (pictures made 2002).

Making platform and heel as one part by milling a solid piece would let them look like the similar platform boots from Pleaser etc.

Your sketches are nice (I think) but in this small size here difficult to watch.

Well they are just meant to be small sketches. just to find the targeted shape, height and style.

bwwwwaaaaaaaa never said I wanna make platform and heel from one part! What I told was just that instead of beginning to shape & mold plateau and heels manually I'm going to find someone who can cnc them so that I can work with exact and high quality parts!

I would like to encourage you on this project. I know that it is possible and I am working on such a project too, if only I would have the time...

I wrote you a pm and get in contact with me if you like.

Beside that I love the boots you would like to make. I know where the pictures came from. The boots were part of the Gemini Klein collection if I rememer correct.I am also not into platforms but into vintage high heel boots with baby doll toes.

This lady has managed to make her own shoes and boots too, some altered and some made from scratch. And beyond that she is also self taught. She shows us that it is possible - not easy but possible. Thank you Suzanne!

http://suzanziballetheels.com/category/home-crafts-with-suzanzi/

yep that's right. I think they were made around 1920 and some years ago they were bought by some collector.

Yeah Suzanne's great but she's got really weird bowed heels

I'm going to let plateau and heels be made with a CNC mill. That's easier and more solid.

Today I made some rough orthografic sketches. A thrill of anticipation...

attached to this post.

Working on this project myself. I'm such a small size and no one caters to small feet or legs (that's affordable anyway...) so I'm ALWAYS having to take knee high boots in so they fit around the calf nicely, or adjusting other heels for a snug fit.

That's great maybe we can help each other here and there!

I thought about that in some way, too. I was thinkin about having the shank and the heel reinforcement rod in one piece... well there are some possibilities. I'll make some sketches and find out if there's someone who can create these.

The shank has to be rigid as the insole and outsole will be bonded to it. If it flexes the sole could start coming apart in the arch. Don't skimp here if you intend to wear the finished product. If finding proper shanks is proving fruitless consider having a machine shop mill them out of solid stock. I'm pretty sure that a blacksmith could help you out in the shank department as well by forging them out of cold rolled steel strip stock.

I hate to destroy a high heel on purpose, but taking one apart will give you a real education on how they are made. After successfully extracting a shank from a high heeled shoe (no easy task) you'll soon see how beefy and rigid they really are. Warning don't do this with a wedge or one that has a rounded outsole through the arch. The wedge will be shankless and the other could be.

I really hope you can do this. I really want you to be successful doing it. I don't however want to see you hurt yourself with a weak design with an extreme heel.

ok this is what I thought. one option will be to have someone create them using a cnc mill. I'll see about that later. First thing is to create the digital last and find someone who can mill them.

P.S.: One thing I sshould say: it isn't my intention to create shoes which feel like they were made by a master shoemaker. My most loved pair of high heels (the silver sandals in my avatar) were 40€/$55 and a cheap china product. I want to create a shoe which is shaped and designed in the way I like it...

You're welcome.

No, the last will not come out of a court shoe or a lace-up shoe unless the shoe is designed in such a way the last will come out. What I would do is to make your model last then send it to a last maker. The good thing about doing that is they can then supply you with different sizes as and when required.

If I was going to make my own lasts I'd try and develop some method that will allow me to dismantle them in the shoe. However, you don't want the last to fall apart while working on the shoe.

I'm currently looking for possible last makers. But I think the "mechanics" of a normal last won't work for a very high heel last. The easiest method (which seems to be used for most lasts) is the last consists of two screwed parts which can be disassembled after construction.

So either I have a lastmaker creating the lasts for me, or I'll use the CNC'ed one-piece-lasts, cut them and make it possible to connect the parts using some screws... I'll show a sketch on how I'd make this soon.

This http://www.reinheimer-werkzeuge.com/links/hilfsmittel.htm is a link to a german tool manufacturer who offers some tools for shoemaking - at a very nice price.

Regarding the shanks, would you use really stiff metal or *slightly* flexible strong spring steel?

First, thanks for your detailed answer!

What you are proposing is fraught with problems and dangers.

Molding lasts from a live foot is virtually impossible. If you submerge your feet in plaster and then pull them out, all you'll be left with is a useless hole. The forepart of the foot is wide and flat and the instep is deep and narrow so as you pull your foot out, you will end up with a hole that is both wide and deep tapering down to one which is wide and flat.

In addition, you will find that it is impossible to get the same heel height on both lasts. They will feel the same but when you cast the lasts they will be very different. On an ultra high heel the variance could be as much as an inch. Even if you put a block in the bowl, one foot will be further back than the other giving you a totally different arch. Using CAD might not be the way forward either unless you have an intimate knowledge of foot anatomy. Altering another shoe design won't work, the dynamics of feet are quite complicated, as the heel gets higher, some parts of the foot shrink and others stretch- and this isn't so well understood unless you have a good knowledge of the joints and bones of the foot.

That's just right. Of course heel height will affect the last shape in a complex way. I've got a pair of heels with the right height. I'll use these (and maybe some image references) with my 3D modeling abilities to create a good pair of lasts -- in the same size.

Ok, suppose you manage to produce a set of lasts, next you need heels. As the heel gets higher, the pressures and the forces change. The force is no longer through the long axis of the heel but instead the sheer forces acting on the heel seat will force the heel outwards so that it tends to kick back when you lift the weight off and will kick forward as you apply weight to it. Even the best factories often get this wrong.

Currently I'm planning to mold the heels using a solid resin reinforced with aluminum rods.

So you have good, well balanced lasts and some nice strong and properly engineered heels, what about the shanks? For flats and low heels, this isn't a problem, you can get away with a sliver of wood. As the heels get higher though, the forces acting through the arch of the foot make it necessary to increase the shank's rigidity. The proprietary ones are bent and then fluted. Making your own from sheet steel would mean bending it into shape and then somehow putting a flute in it without altering the shape. The proprietary ones are pressed with dies under huge pressure or forged.

This one might get difficult. I can bend them into shape but currently don't know how to put a flut structure in them. I'll look around, maybe I'll find a metal processing company which can create a bunch of those for me.

Now you have the lasts, heels and shanks you are ready to go. But what about your patterns? You cannot just guess what shape the individual pieces are going to look like, they have to be made according to certain "rules". You are trying to convert a 3 dimensional object into a 2 dimensional shape, this is not easy for the untutored.

This won't be a problem. I'm able to create own patterns from sketch (did this for my own corset without any template).

Now the making begins. There are some detailed vids on youtube and other places. Also you can find some old books about "traditional" manual shoecrafting.

OK, suppose you manage to fluke the last, heels and shanks and make some patterns, what about the making? A piece of leather is expected to bend in two dimensions. It has to follow the profile of the instep but also bend around the foot in the other plane. it is a rule that you cannot bend a sheet material in two directions. In fact, many materials such as steel are strengthened by corrugating them! You have to stretch the leather the one way before you can bend it the other so that the shape is built into the shoe.

Actually bending the leather around the toe so that it is smooth and neat requires a special tool called a lasting pincer. This will pull, stretch and hold the material while it is tacked and glued. Try buying one. If you don't know where to look this will be impossible. I have yet to come across any tool for any other profession that is remotely similar or could be used for this job.

I already searched & found most needed tools. Searching for "lasting pliers" might give you more results on google. If I remember it right, I found one for about 35 pounds. However massive tools are always pricey...

OK, you have your last and the shoe is now fully made. It has the heel and sole on, how are you going to get your last out? It will need to be shortened or you will need a way to dismantle it to get it out of the shoe because it will not come out in one piece. A foot is jointed and bends, a solid last doesn't so that facility has to be built into it.

Well that could be a problem. Do you know how this is done with real lasts? And in case you don't have a closed shoe, just pumps // lace-able boots, isn't it possible to pop the last out of it without adding damage to it?

The biggest problem is that unlike a corset (for example), you have to build the shoe or boot from beginning to end and then see if it fits. Any other garment you can fit it as you're going along. If you can get a boot on before it's lasted does not necessarily mean it'll fit when it's finished. you can't even use that to assess where you went wrong because for all you know your misfit could stem from a very early stage in the design.

Indeed that will be difficult. No risk no fun

Again thanks for your detailed thoughts!

Thanks for the kind words. Before I'm beginning with anything, I'll just find all needed materials and tools so that I can calculate how expensive it will be. Addition to 1st post: The right english term for "CNC fraise" seems to be "CNC mill" / "CNC milling machine"

thanks, I already know her stuff. When you search around the web you can find shoemaker blogs, tutorial videos and various resources (currently I'm studying an older shoemaker book, very detailed - 500 pages...). I think it won't be a problem to curve a 2-3mm shank with my available tools. I'm not sure if I understood one thing right though - with "bowed accross the short dimension" do you want to say the shank is not only curved along the arch curve but also in the other direction? That won't be easy to do without machinery...

hey gals an' guys, as it's so hard to find anything really cool in large sizes, I'm going to clear away that problem (at least for me) - please have a look at http://www.hhplace.org/shoe_repair_modifications/20900-going_create_high_heels_myself.html#post294192

Info: I don't intend to build high heels made for wearing them 16h/day. It's just the fun of creation and wearing them indoor from time to time. Especially in large sizes it's hard to find very high heels with a sexy shape. So I'm now thinking of creating them by myself. Of course this will be a challenge but I feel I can master it. I'm very creative and dextrous. Always building stuff from scratch. For example, just a year ago I made a patent leather corset from scratch, without any pattern. And thanks to some logic and dexterity it's working fine... However currently I don't have the time to begin, so at the moment this is just theory. I'm thinking of showing my experiences here if some of you are interested to follow me and want to try it by themselves. First difficult thing is to get or create the lasts. Buying ultra heel lasts with short point in size 46/US14 is impossible, so this is where my work will begin. I would be glad if Dr. Shoe gave some feedback on this... I'm currently seeing 4 different ways of creating the lasts. 1. Just use a foot casting - it is possible but the results won't be satisfying. 2. Use an existing high heel that fits you nicely to cast new lasts 3. Use a combination of 1+2 and some modelling clay 4. (my favourite as I'm having experience with that) Create a digital 3D model of the lasts and use a CNC fraise to create some good lasts. To create the 3D models you'll of course need a CAD software or at least a 3D modelling application. Soles and Uppers will be made from leather (arch reinforced with some flat stainless steel spring). Regarding the heels, I'm going to cast the heels of one of my high heels. I'll go with resin reinforced with aluminum/carbon rods. Attached to this post you'll find an image of the high heels I'm going to make. One of the few platform boots I like. Finally: I know this will be difficult. You may tell me about all the problems I might come accross. But please pass on just posting "dumb idea" or "you'll never gonna do this" ok? Looking forward for some feedback and your thoughts!

I think that you are asking them to abandon their niche market. I'll say it again, "They sell six inch heels, the name says it all."

No they don't. Sorry I'm a bit tired of explaining it. Just take a close look at their homepage and especially their heel height info table.

And as you can see a lot ppl are thinking the same.

Just sent an email to 6ihf telling them about this poll and its results. Now we'll see if this can change anyones opinion or at least make 6ihf rethinking about this.

When you're a designer, what you want and what you get are often two different things. The factory are only going to use the lasts they have. A minimum order for heels is 250 pairs (normally) and the same applies to insole boards, shanks, toe puffs and counters. Changing the heel height for every size adds to the cost because it means a new pattern has to be made from scratch rather than just scaling an existing pattern up for all the sizes. The aim of the game I'm afraid is maximum profits. A factory will be happy if they can save 5p a pair on manufacturing costs.

Actually I don't really understand that pattern thing. Please tell me about it. What I think is:

1. when the heel height stays same for all sizes, the overall proportion gets different, so new patterns are needed for this too.

2. When the heel height changes, the shape of the shoe stays the same. So scaling up the pattern and maybe adjusting it for wider feet would be enough.

@everyone: Yep of course 6ihf wants to make money. The important thing is, couldn't this be more lucrative if they do this? I know that in the 'extreme' section - which is the right category for 6ihf - lots of buyers are men; and due to this poll (hoping for a lot more votes!!!) it looks like most ppl have the same opinion.

Another point is - just kinda frustrating - that almost every high heel manufacturer does this, not only the big ones like Pleaser[not for each size but still ok] but also e.g. Leatherworks, Italian Heels etc. And to my mind 6ihf has the greatest designs of all manufacturers. But 6ihf is one of the manufacturers who won't do this scaling!

Something like this perhaps?

http://shop.laszivo.com/index.php?cat=WG20&product=I100BBA

Something like that. Taking a look at some information fuss-schuhe.de provides for some of their shoes, you can see how much heel height has to differ to keep the same overall shape:

14 cm (34) / 14,5 cm (35 + 36) / 15 cm (37 + 38) / 15,5 cm (39 + 40) / 16 cm (41 + 42) / 16,5 cm (43 + 44) / 17 cm (45) / 17,5 cm (46)

Look, please don't think I'm arguing with you, in fact I kind of agree with your point. All I was doing was putting forward a reason why many manufacturers choose not to make heels higher than 6". You haven't answered my question though...

So what's the problem? You say you want them to make shoes with 18cm heels when they already do? I don't understand the point you're trying to raise here. Just order the 18cm shoes in the same colour and finish as the smaller size 6" (15cm) shoe and you'll have the heels you want, surely?

This is because the lasts don't go anywhere near any machine. This is a firm that make shoes to order, they don't produce runs of 100,000+, they make them one pair at a time. What they do is form the toe and heel with thermoplastic in a machine, then insert the last with the insole attached, press down the waist (probably by hand), smooth down all the little folds and ridges and then press a sole on. That is in essence how a shoe is made.

At the end of the day, some firms scale their heels up and others don't. I don't see how a customer who might possible order 5 or 6 pairs is going to influence them into spending thousands of dollars or more on new lasts and heel tooling, let alone the new patterns that have to be cut.

Of course we are not arguing. That would be more like YOU'RE JUST TELLIN SHIT YOU ***** lol

Now to answer your questions: The heels of the silver sandals are bending a bit (well for that they were only 40€!), but still this pair is the most comfortable 6-7" pair I have worn by now. Why? because they have a well-shaped arch!

Regarding your next question - what I'm looking for ist not (well not only ) the heel height but the arch shape! A high heel with a high arch is very comfortable and a lot easier to wear and to walk in. You're right, if my problem was only the heel height, I could just go and buy one of the 18/20cm designs.

Regarding the lasts - 6ihf told me that they use made by machines lasts as they need a lot of precision. And if I remember it rightly, somewhere at 6ihfs homepage there was a photo of their lasts storage. It was really big.

Jep if I was the only one asking for it, there wouldn't be any chance. This is why I decided to take a look at what others are thinking about this...

Any way I have had a pair from 6INF and they were more like 6.3", and the arch was not as pronounced as seen with the smaller sizes, that was disappointing. However if they did add a sharper arch on the larger sizes, I would think a higher heel would not be needed, I had a hard enough time walking in the ones I had. It would just be more comfortable to wear.

Thats exactly my problem. Personally I'm looking for my dream design, which has extreme height and a curvy, high arch, not a diagonal straight arch...

And looking at 6ihf designs, there are a lot styles that fit my idea of a dream design, but only in small sizes! That's very disappointing, especially as 6ihf seems to be the only manufacturer which produces heels with truly high arches.

I chose "other".

I personally like all those designs, especially the ones with the ankle straps.

What do you consider a "large" size and a "small" size?

I can do 8.5 to 9 in women's, which I believe would be about average, if not then perhaps a bit larger than average.

What sizes were those in the pictures (if you know)?

I'm sorry I don't know. It's just some kind of generic comparision;

I think its about US7 vs. US11 or 12.

Yep those ankle straps are sweet. But 6ihf allows you to add ankle straps to almost every design. However this is one currently unimportant thing, the interesting part is comparing the arch shapes and heel silhouettes.

So you're saying that the heels on your silver sandals don't flex when you walk? BTW, that answer about lasts getting stuck in the machine is ridiculous.

Please make yourself aware that we are not talking about heel flexing:

Now everyone knows that it is possible to manufacture high heels with 20cm+ heels that still look slender, sharp and beautiful!

Actually this is not really the case. The limit for a high heel is about 6" or 15cm.

Actually, this IS the case. I'm talking about general heel height, and this may include platforms too.

Even 6ihf manufactures 18cm heels WITHOUT platform. And I guess, when they do it, these shoes will still be stable. And a design with 20cm heel and a varying platform height, which is just 1-2cm for largest sizes.

About the getting stucked lasts: I don't know about that topic, but it's interesting to hear this is/might be ridiculous.

Unfortunately not as price, lack of credit card and confusion about their China size system have held me back from ordering. Mostly the first and the latter though as I don't want to spend a lot of money on a potentially poorly fitting shoe.

Take a look at the "sizing" link at their homepage - there's an extensive table comparing all well known size systems + foot length.

While I prefer a more walkable heel height, I would of course be a lot happier if the angle you can se on smaller size shoes could be scaled up to the larger sizes:

http://www.highness.se/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/bianco_skor.jpg

Looking at your avatar, I can just say that's what I suspected

it's just cost effective to have a single heel unit to fit to all shoe sizes rather than maintain a common angle to the mid soles.

can surely be done as we've seen with bespoke offerings but will push the price up

yep this is one thing for sure. But as I stated some posts ago, 6ihf told me the major problem is they cannot produce large lasts with high arches:

Lasts are created by machines. They are not handmade because volume accuracy is involved. Steep arches on large sizes cause the last to become stuck in the machine. If there is any risk of damaging the machine, the last manufacturer would refuse our request.

This is one problem for sure. If that's true and unavoidable, there's nothing we could do.

Actually this is not really the case. The limit for a high heel is about 6" or 15cm. You get away with higher because you add a platform, as long as the platform increases by the same amount you can have the heel a high as you want. Try wearing a pair of 7" heels without a platform and watch how the heel flexes when you walk, this is putting stress on both the heel and the shank and eventually one will give. Trust me when I say that the heels are not "designed to flex" like some manufacturers will claim.

It would be interesting to find out how many of these extreme heels they actually sell in the smaller sizes, I'm prepared to bet that the huge majority are sold in 8[uk]+. In smaller sizes the flex is less of a problem in that the heel will be shorter and it would be like snapping a pencil, a long one is easier to snap than a short one. The main reason they are shown in catalogues and on the website is because, clearly, the shape of a much smaller shoe is much more erotic and aspirational.

Actually, this IS the case. I'm talking about general heel height, and this may include platforms too. Also, there are other manufacturers which produce large sized heels - just measured the height of the heels of my silver sandals, and they are over 7". Of course true 7" heels w/o platforms are only possible for larger sizes. Even 6ihf produces shoes with 7/8" heels. So the problem's not the heel stability. I just got a more understandable answer (see previous posts).

Just got a mail from 6ihf. This time they answered with something more plausible:

Lasts are created by machines. They are not handmade because volume accuracy is involved. Steep arches on large sizes cause the last to become stuck in the machine. If there is any risk of damaging the machine, the last manufacturer would refuse our request.

I'm with Shafted. When I want a 6" heel I want a 6" heel. Not one sized to 7" to look similar to a smaller size because to be frank I can't walk in 7" heels. I can't even stand straight in them. Sure, my size 14US won't look as sexy but that's the price I pay for having such large feet. Some things are just not fair in life. I've got a pair of Ellie heels that are 7" instead of 6" because of the greater size and they are useless to me. Strangely enough Ellie heels only does this to their 6" heels shoes, their 5" heels stay 5" even at large sizes.

I get your point though. You want that sexy extreme heel look and you just don't get it with these large sizes. I totally get that it would frustrate you. Maybe they should do both, standardized height and different heights per size.

Personally my biggest problem is not height but width. Most shoes are to narrow forcing me to chose a size 14 when I'm truer to a size 12/13 but which leave that ugly gap in the back. I wish a store like 6ihf would have the option to select width as well. I know Archenemy used to have that option.

Do you own 6ihf shoes? Due to the well known problem I can't speak from experience, but when I take a look at 6ihf designs, they seem to be wider and "better" shaped than other brands' heels.

@ Shedevil:

Indeed 6ihf also sells 7" heels, but they aren't shaped as sexy and curvy as the ones I showed in the first post. They are just high, like known from other manufacturers 7" heels.

The only thing I might try some time (but kinda expensive) is a about 8" model from 6ihf, which has a platform scaled to the chosen shoe size - so it will get smaller for large sizes. Still, that design is missing the sexiness of other designs smaller sizes...

Then exactly what is the point of advertizing heel heights? What the industry needs is standardization not scaling. Good luck with your quest, but I just don't see 6ihf as becoming 7ihf or 5ihf. They are selling true 6 inch heels regardless of size. One would have thought their name would have been plain enough.

Don't ask me... however I think there are lots of people thinkin like me, so I wanted to test if I'm right, and maybe 6ihf will think about it if they see there's a certain interest.

Another thing: I think it would be way more useful if you measure the heel height relative to the shoe size. Y'know, all these comparisions like "whats the max heel height you can wear?" is absolutely useless - of course you can easily wear 6" heels if your shoe size is US15... but if you wear something very small, something like US5 maybe, 6" are the height of a ballet heel...

Oh, talkin 'bout ballet boots - would you also like to wear them with exactly the stated heel height? this would create some weird triangle silhouette...

okay I think we've got each others point, and even if we can't agree, its enough about that now.

I don't know about the rest of you but when I want a 6 inch heel, I want a 6 inch heel, not a heel that's scaled to shoe size. My hats off to 6ihf to using their existing system when many other manufacturers are scaling the heel height to te size.

Thats anyhow impossible as every manufacturer and shop measures the heel height at another position...

When I buy *any* product, I want it be shaped like the item I see on the photo!

Not scaling the heel height is like not scaling a boot shaft's height - for small sizes its an overknee shaft, for larger sizes something like a kneehigh shaft... :) that's not what I want.