Puffer

It seems pretty clear that the original question has been lost sight of, namely that: 'The question is intended to establish the point at which a shoe ceases to be an "ordinary" shoe or boot and falls into the category that any manufacturer, advertiser, seller would call a High Heel.'

Nearly everyone is answering by reference to personal perception of what has the look or feel of a heel that is noticeably or desirably high. Nothing wrong with giving us that information but it is addressing a different issue!

If one accepts that a 'heel' of some type is a normal if not absolutely essential part of the construction of any item of footwear, the question becomes one of deciding at what point (height) the heel ceases to be purely functional (e.g. to support or cushion the foot, cope with wear when walking, provide grip etc) and reflects some extra cosmetic or aesthetic element. On the basis that 'normal' shoes (including most intended for males) can have heels ranging from the almost flat to 1.5" or thereabouts, I maintain my view above that anything of 2" or more must be a 'high heel' by definition, however modest that height may be regarded by an observer or wearer whose personal preference is for, say, 3"+ or 4"+ heels.

At a wedding yesterday, I observed two young teenage girls. One was in ballerina flats, the other in court shoes with a kitten heel of about 2". There is no doubt in my mind that the second was wearing 'high heels' (and will, I hope, aspire to greater heights in due course).

Charity shops are a great resource for jeans and heels. I suspect the ladies who work in them have seen it all before, and they're always very helpful when I try stilettos.

If you're not confident going out in skinny jeans, try some tight boot cut ones. You still get the fit above the knee, but you'll be less self-conscious with a flare over your heels.

Lucky you, loswabs, being able to find stilettos in a charity shop that fit you; not likely in my case (UK11)!

I'm still not sure what look and fit I'm really after in jeans. Probably a straight and narrowish (drainpipe?) leg but without being skintight all the way up and down. I don't need to hide my footwear as I'm wearing men's styles and indeed it was to compliment the boots in my avatar that I fancied something narrower. They can be normal length; the heels should remain uncovered.

A result, of sorts, sooner than I expected. I was today browsing in a local charity shop and looked at the available jeans. Nothing suitable in men's but found a pair of skinny grey women's jeans in size 16. The helpful lady measured them and the waist was a good 35" and the leg almost 32". In good condition, at £3.90 they were worth a punt. They fit quite well but are very clingy, although the elastane content helps. They do sit low (as I suppose is intended) and have very shallow pockets (ditto - and useless when it comes to standing a round of drinks!) and the short fly is zipped on the ladies' side (blush!) but not too obvious. Whether I will wear them out is undecided; I do rather agree with the views of others that something a little less skinny might be better.

The Daily Mail (UK) carried this picture of Anthea Turner the other day:http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/12/18/article-1097382-02D9492F000005DC-280_233x641.jpg (although I think it is a couple of years old and has been seen before).

I can't say I particularly like her but the combination of a figure-hugging leather outfit and tight, very pointed overknee stiletto boots is certainly worth an ogle. I suspect that quite a few teenage boys (and their dads) will have lingered over their newspaper that day.

I suppose I should be grateful that, at 6' 1.5", I have been a steady 185 lbs (plus or minus around 5 lbs) for the last 40 years - but my waist has gone gradually from 32" to 35/36", so women's jeans are not quite so easy for me. But I shall carry out a field survey in due course and report any successful acquisition.

Puffer to Dr Shoe (dressed as Tara), on meeting in Lidl: 'Your sweet, sir ... er, I mean madam.

Dr Shoe: 'You're not so bad yourself'.

[Oh well, I must get back to writing the cracker jokes]

Sorry, I didnt mean to look down on Lidl guys. Some great stuff in there but its generally not your mainstream brands here. Thats what I meant. ...

No offence taken, Astrid! I'm going to Lidl tomorrow to stock up on Christmas pud and stollen cake - wish they were available all year round!

As Claire had a prize for English, she would know that it is conventional to leave a line clear between paragraphs, Rebelrebel. Not a criticism of your story, just a suggestion to make the reading easier as one scrolls down!

By chance are they older women, or perhaps less fashionable women? With 4"+ heels an easy find in almost any shoe store now a days, it's difficult to think of younger women, or those who follow fashion trends, thinking a 2" heel is 'high'.

What's disappointing about categories on many shoe websites is they haven't been updated to reflected the new higher heights. '3" and above" doesn't cut it anymore as a category to help filter out your selections.

It seems to me from comments and conversations I have overheard that most women, regardless of age, do consider any heel above about 2" as being 'high', on the logical grounds that it is an intentionally heightened heel as distinct from a nearly flat heel (as on a man's shoe) which is essentially functional. Even if they wear 4"+ heels, women seem to regard their high heels as starting at around 2". It is only when describing or buying particular shoes that a woman really needs to qualify the heel height, either by stating the actual height or in general terms, e.g. kitten, mid-high or very high (or, often incorrectly, by describing any heel of reasonable height as being a 'stiletto', regardless of shape/style - see the rather disappointing comments at http://www.hhplace.org/discuss/girls/12101-where_real_stiletto_heels.html, to which we men are not allowed to respond! It is perfectly possible to have a 1.5" (kitten) stiletto heel, or a 4.5" slim straight heel which is not a true stiletto.)

I entirely agree that, even allowing for variations in height across the range of sizes, it is very unhelpful to see heels merely classified in groups such a 'very high' or '3" - 4"'. I do wonder how many women either refrain from ordering or hesitate to order or have to send something back because the height was not as expected and is unacceptable.

Hi Puffer

I think New Look now do men's jeans but the section is pretty small. I suggest you try two labels - Disco, which are skinny jeans right down to the ankle, or Shimmy, which are really skintight down to just below the knee, at which point they flare out. They both in 3 lengths - 30, 32 and 34 inches. I'm a 30" waist and get into a size 8 which will be pretty tight, so you can go down a couple of sizes.

Uniqlo are a chain of shops which have a similar range, they're sizes are maybe a tad more generous as I've fitted into size 4 jeans and they still weren't quite tight enough!!

Still, have a nice day out shopping and let us know what you buy.

Thanks loswabs, and others. I will investigate after Christmas when the true sales are on!

I'm still a little confused about the ladies size conversions - correct me someone if I'm wrong but aren't the US and UK ladies sizes different, with US being smaller for the same number? (As with shoes!) One reference I found did suggest that a 36" waist was more like a UK18, but I suppose the answer is to try a 16 and 18 and hope that (unlike the hotel that didn't have facilities for dancing) there will be adequate ballroom! And I am wary about lengths - women's jeans seem to focus more on the outside leg rather than the inside - I need a 32" inside, which suggest I must go for what the tall ladies buy. (And I go for tall ladies too!)

I found Uniqlo on the web but there is no branch near me.

... What would DP of Littlehampton prefer them to wear? --- Ugg boots?

Probably not 'DP of Littlehampton' but 'DP with littlehampton'.

[To elucidate for those unfamiliar with UK rhyming slang: There is a modest town in England called 'Hampton Wick' = rhyming slang for the male organ (aka p***k). This is commonly shortened to 'hampton' - you can guess the rest.]

The issue of using iso-propyl alcohol as a stretching fluid has been aired before; see the thread I started at http://www.hhplace.org/discuss/shoe_repair_modifications/8979-more_stretching_needed.html

All I can say is that an IPA/water mixture with a little soap added does soften and stretch leather without any obvious ill-effects or residual marks. The last time I tried it (on the boots in my avatar), I wetted them thoroughly (by pouring a little into the toes, and by rubbing in externally with a sponge) and wore them wet with my socked feet inside polythene bags. The tight spots eased nicely and the boots dried out in normal wear after an hour or so.

As I said before, IPA is difficult to find on retail sale in the UK, but is still listed by Maplin: http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=28994 and appears in fact to be the 99% pure product (as one would expect, given its intended use as a cleaner). I see however that both sizes are currently out of stock for mail order but can be found in most branches, which saves postage!

The Guardian, Tuesday October 28 2008

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/10/27/heels460x276.jpg

High heels just keep getting more precarious.

...

Even the high priest of foot fetishism isn't taken. "I think there's a limit," Blahnik says. "Anything over 11.5cm [4in] is just too much. You can't walk properly; it's no longer elegant." Four inches and a girl's going places, eight and she will have difficulty merely rising to her feet.

Either Blahnik or the author is poor at maths, or he has been misquoted: 11.5cm = approx 4.5" (and I think I've read elsewhere that he considers 4.5" a sensible limit). 4" is not nearly enough!

A nice little story for you all. Last weekend, I had reason to venture into my local Lidl store as there was a one off sale on something I needed.

PS: I know that some of you wont know what Lidl is but its a weekly shopping store that is cheaper than all the rest due to the quality of produce.

You sound as though you are saying that Lidl products are of poor quality and therefore cheap. As far as the food is concerned, I find almost everything of good quality and certainly keenly priced; I've shopped there regularly for years. They even sell a whole Canadian lobster at £4.99 and other seasonal delicacies! And the 'home and wear' stuff is usually good quality and value too (e.g. tools, of which I have a number) - but popular items sell out quickly. The same is true of it's rival, Aldi. Forget Waitrose and its generally over-priced products, good though they may be.

No shoes or boots of note in Lidl in England recently; just the rather continental-style slippers and sandals, although they are certainly fit for purpose.

I would wear cork platforms. That way they can keep you afloat.

Unfortunately, my feet would be on top and my head underwater. :-(

'Unfortunately'?? Maybe you should start a poll!

... Children will wear their mother's stilettos, clothes and make-up as part of play, discovery and fun in their childhood. I've no problem with that. They shouldn't have it forced upon them like this. It's wrong in so many ways. Like someone else says, what next? A baby thong too?

Indeed they will, and dressing-up etc is harmless fun - if that is all that is involved. I recognise that I am biased (no sisters, two sons, three stepsons and almost no experience of little girls) but, 'playing at princesses' aside, I find the sight of any pre-teens in overtly 'pretty' or grown-up clothes, jewellery and/or makeup rather disconcerting. Why anyone would want to have a one- or two-year-old girl's ears pierced, for example, is beyond me. And the whole concept of pre-teen 'beauty pageants' (mercifully rare outside the US, it seems) is, at best, embarrassing. Girls (and boys) will find their own way into fashion and other 'grown-up pursuits' soon enough without undue pressure from either parents or peers.

There is some truth to the possibility that heels may be less popular in the short term. During economic downturns, people become less extravagant. For example, on shoe store manager told me that over the last few months, there have been fewer customers buying a second pair of shoes. This may not have a direct relationship to heels, but if fewer people are buying the second pair then inventory accumulates and profits fall.

Also, people may buy more conservative styles. During the 1980's (the last major economic downturn in the US) it was very difficult to find any heels that weren't pumps- no sandals, no peep toes, nothing but classic pumps. For example, when I would take a date to a formal even, she was as likely to a pair of black pumps she would also wear with a suit to work. Instead of buying shoes for a single event or an occasional event, people were just a bit more practical.

Another sign that I have seen is the number of flats that are showing up in shoe stores- and very cute flats at that. A nice flat or a low heel may be more functional to many and be more of a multiple occasion shoe. Also, shoe repair is going up. Instead of tossing a pair of worn shoes, people are more inclined to get them fixed and wear them a bit. This would have an effect on the number of new shoes sold and the number of new styles that are produced.

My hunch is that heels never really went away in the past, those who love heels will always find them, and wear them, but it would be the people on the margin. People who may wear heels occasionally may wear them less to save them for occasional shoes. Remember in business, its the marginal consumer, the one who may or may not buy something typically that drives the market and in essence provides the style and the options for the rest of us.

Some good points there, vector (and in others' posts too). Thinking about it, you are right that not only were shop stocks of 'proper' stilettos rather limited in the late 80s/early 90s but the styles were very restricted. A couple of ladies I knew who liked stilettos found it almost impossible to buy anything but a plain court, and heels were rarely more than 4". Sandals and slingbacks were almost non-existent then - but thankfully are now available (and seen) everywhere.

I'm not so sure though about the 'depression trend' being towards the more conservative styles. I would hardly classify the widely-seen strappy sandals, or very high peep toes and platforms, as 'conservative' - yet they seem to predominate for non-business wear. Maybe we shall see them disappear from the shops when the current discount buying spree slows down (if it does) and more staid styles come back in. As long as they are not all round-toed chunky-heeled 3" courts (with or without peep toes), I won't mind seeing a bit more conservatism.

Give New Look a try. They have skinny jeans which fit tight and now they have them skintight fitting with the leg flared at the bottom 12". I like those!! You should alos have no trouble trying them on. Uniqlo also have a good range and they too are pretty cheap. £15 to £20 gets you a good pair these days. Let us know how you get on.

Thanks, loswabs. Are the New Look jeans men's or women's - I know some NL shops do sell men's clobber? If women's, what size do I try? I've never heard of Uniqlo - is it a brand, a shop chain or what? (Oh, I do miss C&A!)

I like the idea of getting some skinny (or at least narrow-legged) jeans to wear with my (male) pointed boots. I'm not sufficiently in touch with the UK fashion scene to know where best to buy either male or female versions. I normally wear a 34-36" waist and 32" inside leg - how would that translate to a UK woman's size? Can anyone suggest some user-friendly outlets (i.e. not wholly aimed at teenagers and preferably without piped music) where the prices are modest? (I'm not interested in labels and don't expect top quality.) One place with a big range that I have bought from in the past - Cromwell's Madhouse - told me that they don't sell skinny jeans. If they are fashionable, I wonder why not?

They definitely look like YSL Tribute Too double platforms to me.

Here's a better quality picture of the style as taken from my Guess the Celeb forum. These are being worn by Nelly Furtado:

http://www.hhplace.org/discuss/attachments/your_favourite_shoe_pictures/4418d1226527790-roz_s_all_new_guess_celeb_shoes_thread-day019.jpg

Not sure where you can buy them from, I'm pretty fond of the style myself, particularly with the blue sole.

I know these shoes are popular but I can't get at all excited about this style. The proportional balance seems all wrong: the heel is too parallel ('skinny' if you wish) and contrasts with the rather clunky round toe/platform sole combination. I much prefer to see a woman wearing a classic 4.5 - 5.5" stiletto court with a single sole and a pointed or semi-pointed toe; much daintier and more elegant. Sorry!

... Anything that protects a heel is going to detract from it and although metal heels spring readily to mind as you suggested, they are usually brass and then electroplated to the desired colour. That metal is soft and is scratched by a crack or grate just as easily. On the plus side, they are easy to unscrew and replace and do make the most glorious sound. If you have a friendly man with a lathe, he can make you different shapes for fun as well. A good grade of tool steel preferably High Speed Steel but high carbon will do at a pinch, hardened and tempered will do well to and will be the most resistant to scuffing plus last a really long time. You can then go for really thin tips, i.e. tapering to 3mm, if that is your thing, but you'll sink into tarmac even in the winter. When you scrape the heel as you walk as happens from time to time, at night you will get a few sparks. Back a few stiletto seasons, heel tips had hardened pins and I often saw sparks from heels in the night time. Now they are plain cheap mild steel that wears much faster.

Simon.

I don't think I'd be 'friendly' for much longer, Simon, if you asked me to make heels on my lathe out of high speed steel ! Yes, I suppose it can be turned using carbide tools but not an easy job; it's normally ground to shape. Putting a thread on would be quite a task too. But, yes, one could use a high carbon steel (silver steel), suitably hardened and tempered - or what using about mild steel and then case-hardening?

As for heel pins, I wonder if small masonry nails would make a good substitute to limit wear? The type that fix cable clips might be one answer; they come in several diameters.

One final thought: shoe dye (usually in a bottle with a foam applicator) is invaluable for touching in scuff marks, particularly on black leather. It's not always that easy to find but Woolworths sell it - stock up now at 20% (or better) discount before the stores all close down!

Your boots sound great, Bootylicious, but I can't see any of the imageshack pics. Is there another way of viewing them? Are they the boots in your avatar?

Holiday time - about time too.

Was on a coach holiday in Bournemouth (English South Coast, home of rich people)...

I don't live in Bournemouth but I know it quite well and your comment, if meant seriously, is rather wide of the mark! The Bournemouth area has a varied population with a range of property and lifestyles and is by no means the most affluent part of the south coast. Yes, there are a lot of retired folk but they are not all wealthy and may well be outclassed by those in Lytham or Southport! Your view was probably influenced by the obscene property prices in the exclusive Sandbanks area of Poole; a law unto itself. I hope you enjoyed your break there; it is a relaxing place. Was it a Shearings all-inclusive short break you took; they are good value?

... Moderation is the key to everything in life including wearing heels... Dawn HH

I wonder if our moderators agree?

Hopefully this link will work...

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/fashion/article5007247.ece

Yes, it does - and thanks! There are at least two linked articles which are worth reading also: one on how to wear high heels and another on thigh boot fashion.