A logical argument regarding equality and diversity

[davidicus]

Hi everyone, I have not posted on here very much but I came across something of potential interest to people here.

I was browsing the internet regarding high heeled shoes and came across this post on another forum written by a woman, see what you think:

I really think that people need to use their brains a little with this topic. I say that blatently because it's so true. We are born without clothes, girls are not born wearing high heel shoes, and neither are boys wearing boxer shorts, so where is the issue I ask???.

Society has determined the clothing which is worn by woman and men and no one else. There is nothing in clothing that derives from nature and is only about what society accepts. In saying that, how does a man wearing lingerie determine his sexual orientation which is supposed from all accounts have been decided genetically at birth???

Women want, do and get away with in society wearing virtually anything they desire, but a man can't???, Is that sexist or double standards or what???. A woman complains that she missed out on her dream job because she is female and all hell breaks loose with sexist issues etc etc why???. She may not have been chosen for the job being female, but she can wear skirts, stockings and high heels as compromise instead which is fair, isn't it, when complaining of sexism???. Can't have everything surely???.

So why would a man want to wear or try on sexy lingerie, some women just can't understand. Use your brains ladies, doesn't wearing lingerie make you feel sexy too. Well, sexy lingerie and clothes have a "big" effect on me, so I would imagine for a man, the effect would be greater. I will ask again ladies, how come you can't imagine why a man would like to experience this???. I would say that you don't want to understand, from the point of keeping anything soft and nice exclusively for your own pleasure. How selfish don't you think????.

Sure I agree that there is no way I would allow my husband to wear a high heels to work, or do the gardening in a mini skirt out in the street, but only for the reason that society would make his life misurable for doing so, which my instincts would protect him from ridicule and say don't.

In the privacy of our bedroom, who cares if he want's to experience the feelings I feel, in fact, it's rather complementary that he does, and rather arousing too. Loving women and needing the closeness of femininty, doesn't sound queer or homosexual to me.

A desire to be close to and love femininity, how can that be so wrong, you are being silly here ladies, please use your brains and enjoy his respect and understanding of women, and more to the point, that he views women and femininity far more than merely a nice warm hole inwhich to place his penis to achieve an orgasm!!!

I guess some women must enjoy their femininty being defined solely from what lies between their legs. I like to be thought of as a woman defined as something more credible than only that!!!!

I know she is talking more about lingerie than high heels but the principle is the same, I am just putting this here for everyone to review and comment on, but on a final note I have this to say:

Footwear is unique to humans and it serves two purposes, keeping out feet safe, clean and dry, secondly is fashion. A heel on a shoe/boot is just that, a piece of fashion, is does not imply that the wearer is gay, is unsure of his orientation, is insecure in any way.....no, all it is...all it means is that the wearer likes that fashion accessory.

It should, at least to my mind, be considered no different than the color and pattern of a scarf, the style of coat one wears, the style of collar on a shirt one wears, the style of jacket one wears, etc, etc, etc.

As a race we have made many advances in the past century, we have given equality to women, we have given equality to homosexual people, we have given attention to those children who suffer abuse, we have given attention to animals that suffer abuse at the hands of their owners. We are moving forward, strict dress codes of men wear x and women wear y belong in the last century. Why I ask should we discriminate against anyone, are we qualified judges of them? Do we know what is right and what is wrong in all things, because if we do, then surely we are claiming to be like a god!

Furthermore, if you are a woman reading this, then I say this to you from the depths of my heart, how would you feel if someone told you that you are never able to wear a shoe or boot with a heel above 1.5 inches high, no exceptions...I urge you to think about this, imagine yourself never, ever being able to wear high heels again. period. The women I have talked to would find it incredibly tough because of their love for high heeled footwear, yet this is exactly what has happened to the male side of the human species.

Let us now put aside our previous beliefs and accept each and every one of us as individual, thinking, feeling, moral beings who each have different likes, dislikes, desires and needs.

Peace and Respect to all,

Davidicus

[Charlie]

It's not women that are keeping men from wearing heels. At best, only a small percentage of women would bother to try and do this and very likely for the aforementioned reasons. By and large it's MEN that are keeping men from doing anything outside of the social norm.. I believe it's men's natural insecurity rearing its ugly head. Charlie

[davidicus]

Sorry Charlie if I came across as "women are the enemy", that is not how I meant it, the final part was simply to provide an example that men face which women could emotionally identify with. I recognize though that you are right, men have a fear or being thought of as gay, therefore they all wear clothing that fits within a narrow band between fashion and strict blandness.

[LuvHHBoots]

Gender is a social construct based on one's sex in a particular society in time. What is acceptable now (women wearing pants) would have been scandalous 100 years ago in our society and would *still* be scandalous in certain societies in the world today. Men wearing heels used to be acceptable in high (Western) society but is presently "taboo". Pink is no more 'feminine' than blue is 'masculine'--we assign meaning to those colors based on our culture. Just like patent leather OTK stiletto heels are considered feminine, big lug leather work boots with a steel toe are considered masculine. But there is nothing inherently masculine or feminine about either of them, it is all cultural meaning we assign to each. And these meanings change over time. Consider a woman going to work today dressed like Audrey Hepburn in "Breakfast at Tiffany's" day in and day out. She'd be considered an anachronism and would probably have a lot people whispering behind her back. But when my mom was in her 20s, that was normal wear.

[Guest]

well, I'd have to agree with all of you about this factor, namely insecurity, on a mostly a social level you see it is forgotten by most that ALL us make up what is "society" & so therefore it seems to me that ALL of us in that respect are fearing what the other person(s) are thinking about us (or going to think) dressed "out of the box" so to speak so all the "others" are the "us" in "society" (each one of us male or female) it's like us vs them type of thinking when we are the them-being sort of us being insecure about each one of us as a whole (if that makes any sense) if you take for instance maybe- let's say 50,000 people that would say or feel this or that kind of insecurity about everyone else in such a group then it would seem that each one of those 50,000 persons are really saying (or feeling for that matter) the same thing about each other!!! so in this respect you could think about it in this way! it really is so illogical it does boggle the mind!:-?

[skirtedvik]

It's not women that are keeping men from wearing heels. At best, only a small percentage of women would bother to try and do this and very likely for the aforementioned reasons. By and large it's MEN that are keeping men from doing anything outside of the social norm.. I believe it's men's natural insecurity rearing its ugly head.

Charlie

When you are brought up that all feminine incl. heels is for women and a man is never to wear that, whose fault is that?Most children are brought up by their mothers.They introduce the machismo with the assistance of the father in latter stages.

[skirtedvik]

"Women want, do and get away with in society wearing virtually anything they desire, but a man can't???, Is that sexist or double standards or what???. A woman complains that she missed out on her dream job because she is female and all hell breaks loose with sexist issues etc etc why???. She may not have been chosen for the job being female, but she can wear skirts, stockings and high heels as compromise instead which is fair, isn't it, when complaining of sexism???. Can't have everything surely???. I fully agree to that one, open your eyes.Never hated women,never will.

[hhboots]

I really like the quoted comments from the original post, but I also agree with Charlie, that men are probably a lot more to blame than women for there being such a narrow definition for what is considered normal for men to wear. Of course, its very hard for any of us to go against what society considers the norm. We are constantly pressured to fit in, and most of us have a hardwired sense of wanting to conform to society. The farther you deviate from this norm, the harder it can be to lead a productive life. As others have said before, the biggest hurdle to overcome is ourselves. For most of us it takes time to build the self-confidence to do this, but I have been very proud of myself over time pushing out of this "normal silo". It is still is very hard, it probably won't ever be completely easy for me, but I enjoy the rewarding feeling of expressing myself freely and not always conforming to society norms. I think the confidence I have built up from public heeling has helped me in other aspects of life.

[radiodave]

The logic sounds nice, but unfortunately, popular opinion isn't based on logic. Lots of stereotypes exist that make people assume someone is "gay". I'm half tempted to ask one of these people what their definition of "gay" is when they throw it out. How many do you think would be able to answer that? I get the feeling that in this day and age, any guy showing any signs of being un-manly is automatically labeled with the g-word. You could go on reasoning that if a woman calls a man gay because he likes high heels, then she must be a lesbian because she wears pants, doesn't like to wear skirts, heels, or jewelry, but will it work? Probably not. Even if you point out that 100 years ago women wearing pants was considered queer, it just seems to go right over their heads. I also just think that humans don't deal well with things that are different and are quick to judge people who look different. I know a guy who has multiple piercings, tatoos, has long hair, and probably looks like he belongs in a heavy metal band, but once you speak to him you would probably be surprised to find out that he's a manager at the county department of environmental services, and he's actually very soft-spoken. You wouldn't guess it from looking at him though. I think it will just take time to change popular opinion. Don't forget that way back when there was this crazy guy named Galileo who though the earth revolved around the sun and had facts to back him up, but boy, that idea sure didn't go over very well at the time. I mean, everybody knew that the sun revolves around the earth and how dare he think otherwise.

[Charlie]

When you are brought up that all feminine incl. heels is for women and a man is never to wear that, whose fault is that?Most children are brought up by their mothers.They introduce the machismo with the assistance of the father in latter stages.

I wasn't saying that there's no reason for the way men pressure themselves to conform to this ridiculous standard that we've arrived at, just that they do. In my opinion, you're largely correct.

Charlie

[Dr. Shoe]

"Women want, do and get away with in society wearing virtually anything they desire, but a man can't???, Is that sexist or double standards or what???. A woman complains that she missed out on her dream job because she is female and all hell breaks loose with sexist issues etc etc why???. She may not have been chosen for the job being female, but she can wear skirts, stockings and high heels as compromise instead which is fair, isn't it, when complaining of sexism???. Can't have everything surely???.

I fully agree to that one, open your eyes.Never hated women,never will.

Don't hate women then eh? Sounds like it! Not!

"Never mind darling, you've been passed over for that £150,000 but hey, you can still wear heels whenever you like!"

Comments like this just show the general ignorance and the way that men stereotype women!

How do you think a woman would really feel if you made these comments to them? Perhaps you could say: "If you're good and do all the washing up and clean the house, I'll let you wear your heels." which is essentially what you've already said. It's not women that stops you from wearing heels and skirts, it's you!

[Charlie]

"Never mind darling, you've been passed over for that £150,000 but hey, you can still wear heels whenever you like!"

This made me think back to around 25 years ago when I attempted to secure a higher position in the company I was working for at the time and the decision came down between myself and one other candidate out of a field of around 10. I remember telling myself that if I didn't get it, life would still be good because I still had my motorcycle to ride around. I lost out and having the motorcycle didn't help at all. Had I been wearing heels then, it wouldn't have made me feel any better to know I could keep wearing them either. I agree that anyone saying the above to anyone else would be of questionable character and/or mental development.

Charlie