Creationism vs Evolution

[Dr. Shoe]

Dr. Shoe, you apparently didn't read the article(s) on random genetic drift.

They augment the evolutionary argument in a completely unrelated way. You seem to ignore the things you feel you can't explain away, and hope that no one notices./

Actually, if you understand slavery at all, you will realise that the overseers would have been slaves themselves and would almost certainly have had to have been trained for their duties. moreover, many of the scribes would have been servants and therefore slaves or at least bondsmen. If you studied Israeli history, you would se that they wrote a language called Aramaic sort of a cross between hebrew and Arabic. The Egyptians of the time used Hieroglyphs so Aramaic must have been carried by someone. Moreover, don't forget that Moses was a slave himself even if he had been fostered by the princess. Moreover, the israelites were only in slavery for the final few decades of the exile in Egypt as they had originally been invited to live there by Joseph. My point is, men at that time were no more stupid than they are now and just because they were slaves they were not ignorami.

[Laurieheels]

I don't think that anyone from thousands of years ago could be dropped into the modern world and get along. That was why I started this thread. There is something different about people now than t here was even a hundred years ago. What if we took an Israelite and brought him here, and let's suppose we gave him a way to communicate with us, no need for learning new languages for anyone? Would he pick up how to live in our society? Likely, he would not. The fast pace, the difference in technology, customs... even if we moved him in with a modern Jewish family, this man from the past would probably hide in a room for fear of the strange things that he could not keep up with. We have changed and adapted to life at this pace. Older generations have trouble with it, even though they have lived through the changes. If someone experiencing them cannot handle the changes so well, someone from the distant past would be lost and have some serious problems. Did an Egyptian or Israelite have the same potential for mental ability that we do? Yes. But did they have it developed the way we do? No. Thus, they were told how to be, how to live, what to think, and it worked for them. The Middle Ages had a problem: people could not read the bible. Books were exspensive, and that really limited the opportunity to learn how to read. So priests told people what they should do, and shaped what people thought. Thump that Bible, baby. But we run into something interesting. The printing press. Suddenly, books are cheaper to make, easier to make, and the middle class are eager to buy their own bibles. And they start reading them. And the so called Chruch begins to worry. People should not be reading this collection of books, they'll formulate their own ideas. And worse, people start printing books about their different ideas. People did start reading, and realizing that the church was not doing what it should be, in their opinions. And everyone had an opinion. Eventually, someone was so upset with Indulgences and other church behaviour, that he went and posted his list of complaints on a catherdal door. He was thinking for himself, he could read and write, and he wanted to bring about change. Now, Let's say Guttenburg did not work on the printing press, and let's say Martin Luther did not make his protest against the Church. Would things have remained unchanged? No, because someone else would have come along to advance free thinking and try to point out the problems. And in many ways, that is what we are doing with this debate. God can create the world, but as people start to use that intellectual ability ther human brain can provide, they start realizing that these stories called Bible are, well, contradictory, and confusing at times. (Vengeful God, happy God, which is it?) They start thinking, and while they believe still, because they see the good of this Bible, they start finding flaws with how the books are used to justify actions. And this is how we get to where we are today. People have been able to use their brains to better potential, and look at the world, rather than be told about it. If any one religion were right, we'd all believe in it. But this is not the case. As time has gone by, we as a species have had the ability to develop thought, and live lives based on different ideas. So if we keep thumping the bible and saying "yes, we were created by God in six days, then God took a day off" we are not allowing ourselves to develop this wonderful ability that we have. If we were created by God, should we not use everything that he gave us? It would dishonour God if we failed to use our brains to think and choose. We have this wonderful gift, why ignore it? It would be like me receiving shoes from someone, and not trying them on! And if thinking leads us to doubt what was told to people thousands of years ago, then so be it. Once, we used copper to make tools, and then we discovered bronze. And then, we learned how to use Iron. Now we manipulate silicon and glass with amazing results. Microchips and fibre optics. If we feared this investigation, if we were closed minded, we would not have gotten anywhere. And what would be the fun in that?

[Dr. Shoe]

for all the reliance on a single book that probably has no real information as to the origins of man, save superstition, there is a heavy dependancy on it for the arguments being presented.

For all the reliance on a single hypothesis that probably has no real information as to the origins of man, save supposition, there is a heavy dependancy on it for the arguments being presented.

The Bible has been reputed to be the oldest book in the world. Possibly, but who can tell. The first man couldn't read or write, instead he drew on cave walls (after the discovery that certain things would leave a lasting mark on solid objects) the things he observed and wanted to remember.

The spoken word might have been handed down from generation to generation, as is the tradition of certain native American-Indian cultures, but even this is open to interpretation. Those who remember playing Chinese Whispers will know how the spoken word changes even before it comes back.

This is true and one of my points in the opening argument. We cannot take the bible literally but use it as more of a guide.

Science is based on fact and hypothesis. A hyphothesis because it hasn't been made fact, but that's what science sets out to prove. Some argue that evolution doesn't happen. Yes, there are still fish, newts, lizards and the rest. Why? Because not all organisms chose to go in certain directions. There are signs of evolution still we can see, although the reasons for the changes may not be readily recognised as a bonus to the human species, but people are getting taller and foot size is getting bigger. Why? Who knows! But I'm sure that science, some day, will have an answer. Or is someone going to say that it is God's will that people will change?

This is precisely my problem with the "theory" of evolution. As I have said before, Darwin's work cannot be any more than a hypothesis because the hypothesis of evolution starts off by saying: "Perhaps there was a kind of a primordal soup...", it continues to say:"No one can say for certain, but perhaps a fish learnt to live for long periods on dried up river beds..." then ends by saying: "Then possibly some apes left the forest and learned how to make tools." The reason why we are getting taller is because infant health is so much better, our kids don't suffer from rickets, ante-natal nutrician is better understood, post-natal care is better and people in general are healthier and grow better than they did 400 years ago (though there are more problems associated with high fat/high sugar diets).

Science doesn't have all the answers and neither does the Bible.

On this particular issue I don't think science has any of the answers quite frankly!

Here's another hypothesis that will throw a spanner in the works. A supreme being creates a planet inhabited with large reptilian creatures, another supreme being creates a planet with an advanced civilisation on it. The advanced planet discovers space travel and decides to go out and explore. A meteor plows into the reptilian planet wiping out the vast majority of the creatures inhabiting it, the advanced planet finds it eons later and decides to settle the world, but disease of unforeseen nature wipes out the older generations. The younger generation left unattended with no language or culture somehow survives and adapts leaving the settled areas believing them to be dangerous. They become Nomads, travelling from place to place eventually stopping long enough to build villages. Their civilisation grows and becomes too large for a single group. They split and set of in different directions, those groups later splitting through conflicts or unmanageable numbers. A diverse populace needs maintaining, but how? Somewhere along the line, there is a story about how they came from the sky. How, they are not sure, but different opinions are rife. Someone invents a way for communication to be recorded and understood. The story of their origins are told to all that will listen. Some believe this, some don't. Life experience or education changes facts and what you believe is clouded by what are taught. The people have choices believing that they stem from a supreme being or have evolved from the other creatures that inhabit the planet, thus creating a debate between creationism or evolution.

At least this idea is more credible than saying that we are all descended from something less well developed than moss! Actually, it fits quite well with an idea of my own which certainly does not include evolution!

Now imagine that I went back in time and spread this story to anyone who'd believe and it gets written down. It becomes widely believed because it's written in the oldest known book. Does this then become a religion, a myth or a fact?

So essentially, you're saying that you would not take the opportunity to reveal the truth, even if you had to put it in simple allegorical terms so that people could understand?

Don't sit there shaking your head in disbelief, because you've already have chosen your belief, instead look at it from the point of someone with no belief. If you were a person in ancient times who wanted an answer for where you came from and came across this hypothesis first and another later, which would you believe. The one that made most sense to you, wouldn't you? But which is true? You don't have the answer, I don't have the answer, but maybe there is more than two stories that could apply.

How true! None of us have the answers. When I was in my 20s I was ready to argue most vehemently for the case of evolution until I realised how ridiculous it is. Ok, I don't neccessarily believe the bible either but at least it seems to answer more questions than it poses.

So were we created by a God, evolve from lower lifeforms or were a subject of an accident from some extraterrestrial lifeform or maybe even a planned one? Who knows? But one thing is for sure, if I been in around in the middle east at the time when Jesus was supposedly born and told my tale of life on this planet, I would have been stoned to death by the God fearing populace.

But would you have? I don't believe that they were any different then than we are now. They wouldn't have had access to the technology that we have, but they had the same average IQ and the same ingenuity. If you had told them that you had flown in a plane they would have asked what it was. If you had described it as a flying chariot, they could well have said: "Well! what will those Romans think of next!"

[Francis]

glad to see I instilled a little thought there Dr.Shoe, I would interested to hear your hypothesis, seeing as reckon you have a similar notion to my previous rendition of a thought I had. This thought wasn't something I actually believe, I have a completely different hypothesis, but it extends beyond the universe as we know it. But, as I say, i would be interested in listening to your version of the origins of life.

[Dr. Shoe]

My idea Francis (it isn't a hypothesis as I haven't been able to test it): Without iwshing to stereotype, have you noticed how different races are built or have a natural aptitude toward certain skills and virtues? Africans are built for strength and speed (but not neccessarily stamina). Orientals are skilled craftsmen and adept at working at fine, detailed work. Caucasians seem to be the great administrators (most of the world's great conquerors have been caucasian except Ghengis Khan etc.). Asians are nature's businessmen. My idea: There was a ship en-route to another part of the galaxy that got into trouble and crashed into what is now the Pacific basin. Some of the passengers and crew survived and settled in different parts of the world probably according to where their lifeboats came down. The security people settled in Africa, the Artificers came down in what is now China, the flight crew came down in Europe and the passengers came down in India. The point is, the various crew members were especially engineered for their tasks. Of course in the absence of any proof this is just fiction but it is interesting to note that all archeological eveidence points to the fact that homo sapiens suddenly appeared almost simultaneously world-wide about 10,000 years ago, but of course this cannot be because we have the theory of evolution don't we?

[Laurieheels]

Okay, so if you extend the idea, where did this star ship crew come from? And were they created, or did they evolve on some other planet? Or is this just another progression of the same incident that happened long ago on another planet? It can be a circular argument. We have to find where it started, and random chance of people crash landing here and reverting to a primative lifestyle thousands of years ago does not really answer the question, it creates more complexities. And it doesn't answer how all of the other life forms, plant and animal, came to be here. Unless that was all cargo that was dropped by this space ship and somehow flourished as well. But some crates landed in India, and some landed in Africa, and a whole bunch ended up in North and South America, which seem to be neglected, as usual. Of course, it does not explain why Scandinavian people were seen as being so different in the Middle Ages, big, strong, aggressive, quick, when comapred with other people in Europe who should have shared the same ancestors. Alien habitation is too simple to provide everything that we have here. Besides, physical appearance is based on climate, not who ended up in what life pod. But this is fun, do keep going. There's an excellent Science Fiction story in here somewhere.

[Francis]

but who says it hasn't happened? maybe not to this planet, but there are an infinite number of planets out there and not all have intelligent life on them, so it's quite likely that this and many other planets have be settled in a similar way. interesting theory, Dr.Shoe. Of course there's loopholes to the theory, but don't they all? Laurie, I believe we were discussing our origins on this planet, but there is a point in what you said. as for time travelling scientists creating life on planets, that is also a possibility. In fact, any time traveller who goes back to ancient times would be viewed by the inhabitants of that time as a God because of their extraordinary talents. For example, take a gun to the stone age, man is still hunting with spears, you stand there and point a strange object at a creature, there's a loud noise and it drops down dead. The locals would then believe you were some kind of God because you pointed at a creature and it died. True? Of course it is, because you can do something that no-one else can or even possibly believe anyone can. God status is bestowed upon you and the locals worship you, some out of awe, others out of fear. Then you climb into your time travelling machine and return to the future and you're a God no more. So an the strength of that theory, how do you define a God? Supernatural being, extraordinarily talented person or something else? If creationism is the key and God exists, then who created God? If evolution is the key, then a Godlike race could have appeared and developed and then discovered how to create life, made a planet with sentient beings on it and became a God to it's inhabitants. So many questions and so many varying answers. Do you think we shall ever know the answer? Some people take solice in the Bible believing in the age old doctorate that there is a supreme being out there that is watching over us and that he instructed many people to write this book for you to find your answers to the challenges you face, while other people chose to find their own solutions due to their lack of 'faith' or interest in a single book because the answers they seek aren't in there. Now don't say that they are there and simple need interpeting to the situation or I'll say that I could find the same interpretations in any episode of Star Trek. Interpretation is based on educated assumption and we all know where assumption gets us! Thus, the same thing in a book will mean different things to different people. Now is this really what the Bible is all about? Creationism and evolution! Have you ever thought that the two might be connected somehow?

[Julietta]

I’d like to come in on this topic as I have been thinking about it most of the weekend. Before I give my opinion I’d just like to give a little of my background so that you know where I’m coming from. I have a Spanish mother brought up in the Catholic faith and an English father brought up in the Christian faith. Both non religious, and therefore decided to bring myself and my siblings up without religion, their thoughts were that we could choose what we wanted to be when we were old enough to know who we were, something I have passed on to my 3 children, although as for the knowing who I am I don’t think I’ve quite got there yet LOL. I have therefore no knowledge of any religion other than the influences of my parent’s religions regarding morality and respect for my fellow man etc. At school I had lessons in RE, but just thought of them at best, good stories and at worst illogical and for the most part, extremely boring lessons (although I thought that of most lessons anyway). I have studied hypnosis and the subconscious and find the mind a very fascinating subject. I am still non religious and as it stands don’t ever see myself as becoming anything other than following the cycle of nature, so my input is purely from an outsider looking in as I am totally unprogrammed as it were…… Religion as far as I can see, and logically understand was invented to control the masses by the very rich churches that were in cahoots with the rulers of anyone time. Apart from that it causes an awful lot of problems in the world. People also somehow need to follow a spiritual path whatever their beliefs. But also when you look at religions they are usually set up logically to suit the climate of that country e.g. Muslim’s and Jewish religions are mainly to do with cleanliness, essential to the community due to extreme heat. Hence prompt burials. Christianity, Catholicism the bible um. Who is God? Whenever I have asked this question about this amazing being who is around us yet you cannot touch, taste, feel, hear or see “him” (as it is “he” and not “she” that he is referred to) I haven’t really been given a logical answer back as yet. Now Jesus I can perhaps get to grips with, although I see him more a healer, mesmerist, witch doctor of his times that obviously amazed the poor uneducated people of his time. What I don’t understand is that he was supposed to be God’s son. So how did God produce him without a Mrs. God and who then were Mary and Joseph? You know it is way to deep and life is too short. Also if we were created in his image how come there are so many variations to us? Again I find this all quite fictitious and without foundation. When you think about those times and the people who were for the most part very uneducated, they even thought that the horizon was the end of the earth and that if you went past it you would fall off, then a Paul McKenna of the year dot would really wow the crowd. Evolution. Well I always tended towards this explanation for my existence but it still doesn’t quite explain fully our sudden existence. But we are still plebeians in the scheme of things and who knows what science will turn up, I mean up until a 100 years ago we couldn’t fly let alone create a rocket to take us to the moon (although I’m a little sceptical on that one too as nothing much has happened since then, and we have progressed an awful lot since that time - but that’s another thread). On the other hand I can see that people possibly evolved again according to the climate that they live in e.g. Africans have very dark skin to protect against the strong sun. Dark haired Spaniards, Arabs, Italians etc also dark to protect against the lesser but still strong sun of their respective climates and the fair haired Swedes, Germans etc fairer due to their cooler climates. I do believe that we cannot possibly be the only living beings in the Universe and I bet they would look at us and see us as extreme primitives, especially at the moment with the war in Iraq saga and a couple of people trying to play God themselves. So all in all I have come to the conclusion that it wouldn’t ever surprise me if we one day found out that we were, indeed, descendents from a long lost Alien ship, that crashed here or deposited themselves here, because they were tired of travelling around the universe!

[azraelle]

I posted this to another thread, but at the risk of being drummed off the board as a modern-day heretic, let me share with you two small facets of "Mormon doctrine", to wit:

" As man is now, God once was; as God is now, man may become "

(--attributed to Joseph Smith)

[Jehovah, as the God of this world, speaking in vision to Abraham] "Worlds without number have I created..." and "[paraphrased] I have done nothing that I have not seen my Father do..."

By the way, Julietta, nice to see that you've returned, and thanks for condolences regarding my mother.

[Francis]

Heretic !! No, really. In one sense that could be true. A pity that Joseph was killed for his belief, much the same as anyone around 10AD would have been for saying the word Jehovah! Religion has been used to subdue the masses and for justification to go to war claiming that they are doing it in God's name. These people are the real heretics. Surely, if the writings in the bible were a true account of "God's Word" then it should mean that we should persue happiness and selflessly help our fellow human. I know of some people who do that, but don't believe in religion. Mind you, they're not set on the evolution theory either! Julietta, according to the bible, the archangel Gabriel carried God's seed in his mouth and emptied it into Mary's ear! Who ever heard of someone getting pregnant through the ear, it's physically impossible!! But before that, archangel Gabriel carried the seed in his mouth! So, by this we are to believe that God is male and that both God and Gabriel were gay. Makes you wonder if God went round the angels and asked if they spat or swallowed! EWWWW! And if they weren't gay, then why would Gabriel have the 'seed' in his mouth? For the seed to be collected, God must have been physical. If he was truly all powerful, then he wouldn't have needed any of this, but simply point a finger and Mary would have been pregnant. There is another explanation, Jesus was an alien of the same type that originally settled the planet, but far more advanced, possessing powers of healing, levitation and matter transformation. With these gifts he would have created a following much the same as someone possessing the same gifts would be now, if he weren't shot by the government first as they would have seen him as a threat to their power. That happened 2000 years ago as well, didn't it? The book of Mormon does make more sense than the Bible, but again, has a reliance of the deity theory. In which case it comes back to, who created God if God created the world?

[squirrelheels]

I know of some people who do that, but don't believe in religion.

I don't believe in religion, but I'm still a Christian. Fundamentally I believe that Jesus is my personal saviour, and that through his death I am able to have a relationship with God that enables me to spread the word of the gospel as Jesus commanded.

SH

[Julietta]

Julietta, according to the bible, the archangel Gabriel carried God's seed in his mouth and emptied it into Mary's ear! Who ever heard of someone getting pregnant through the ear, it's physically impossible!! But before that, archangel Gabriel carried the seed in his mouth! So, by this we are to believe that God is male and that both God and Gabriel were gay. Makes you wonder if God went round the angels and asked if they spat or swallowed! EWWWW! And if they weren't gay, then why would Gabriel have the 'seed' in his mouth? For the seed to be collected, God must have been physical. If he was truly all powerful, then he wouldn't have needed any of this, but simply point a finger and Mary would have been pregnant.

Oh my *** ! Sounds like a Stephen King, sorry no offence please to any of you who believe this, as each to their own, I have just not been taught religion in any shape or form so I am always seeking a logical answer to these things and that ain't logical.

Personally, I used to have the thought pattern that, Mary got pregnant by Joseph, out of marriage by fooling around (that was after I'd found out that it is possible to fall pregnant without penetration). I then thought that they had to move away because of it. As I said before nice stories although I do feel that obviously there is a historical element to them too.

On Jesus. As I said that I thought he was some kind of mesermist, a Paul McKenna no make that Derren Brown of his day. I have studied *hypnosis after doing a hypnotherapy course, in it's many forms and if any of you have seen a hypnotist at work you know that it is possible to make people see things that are not there, the burning bush for example!

It is also possible for the mind to be told that the stomach is full re the fish, bread, wine episode, and to see people walk on water, but to do this en mass, the conditions would have to be right and these would be:

A desire to believe

A willingness to listen

Weakness of mind and body - due to hunger (more to do with *brainwashing than hypnosis really but in this case it would add up)

A Desire to Believe

Well in those days of old, the people were poor, hungary and uneducated and so, if told that Jesus was God's son and that he was coming to save them from hunger and poverty, the desire to believe a better life was around the corner would easily make them sit up and listen.

A Willingness to Listen

By all accounts Jesus was a good public speaker and with the hope that he preached (and I believe he obviously was a good guy) the people listened to him. Second stage of hypnotising as one way to hypnotise is to use the voice (mainly used in hypnotherapy).

Weakness of the mind and body

Now, although starvation is used to brainwash a person, in this case the people were already starving so it would have made mass hypnosis even more easier to achieve.

The question here though is, how did Jesus aquire this talent, gift for public speaking and education/intelligence? I mean I know some people are born leaders but he did seem to have a lot more qualities than your average man!

I am open minded to believe the alien theory because at this stage non of us are any the wiser really, well I'm not that's for sure!

* Hypnosis is not brainwashing, voodoo or anything spooky. Mesmerists have been around from the year dot and are known normally as healers or witch doctors. A person CANNOT be hypnotised against their will and a hypnosist cannot change a persons deep set morals i.e religious beliefs etc.

Under hypnosis you are fully aware of what is happening around you and you have the option to break away from it. It does not mess with a persons free will.

We all go into hypnosis every day of our lives especially as it is that point between sleep and wake. Hypnosis just accesses the subconscious without the hinderance of our conscious mind interferring, which is why it is successful in curing phobias - we all have arguments with ourselves, part of us says one thing the other part says something else - conscious and subconscious.

** Brainwashing (favoured by sects) is achieved by firstly starving the subjects until they are physically weak. They are also subjected to mundane physical duties and lack of sleep, which further weakens the body and also the mind. At this point and only at this point can the sect leader start to brainwash by repeating over and over affirmatives.

[squirrelheels]

Personally I think that stuff about the seed, and God and Gabriel being gay is a) sick and a load of crap. But there we are.

Hypnosis is something that has been discovered in the last few centuries. It wasn't known about 4000 years ago, or even 2000 years ago. Sure, it can make you see things. But what are you trying to prove by saying there wasn't a burning bush?

SH

[Dr. Shoe]

Religion has been used to subdue the masses and for justification to go to war claiming that they are doing it in God's name.

These people are the real heretics.

Indeed, it's been replaced by TV now.

Surely, if the writings in the bible were a true account of "God's Word" then it should mean that we should persue happiness and selflessly help our fellow human. I know of some people who do that, but don't believe in religion. Mind you, they're not set on the evolution theory either!

Rather a simplistic view Francis but essentially correct. I think that your "religion" is irrelevant, this is the hallmark of a human being.

Julietta, according to the bible, the archangel Gabriel carried God's seed in his mouth and emptied it into Mary's ear! Who ever heard of someone getting pregnant through the ear, it's physically impossible!! But before that, archangel Gabriel carried the seed in his mouth! So, by this we are to believe that God is male and that both God and Gabriel were gay. Makes you wonder if God went round the angels and asked if they spat or swallowed! EWWWW! And if they weren't gay, then why would Gabriel have the 'seed' in his mouth? For the seed to be collected, God must have been physical. If he was truly all powerful, then he wouldn't have needed any of this, but simply point a finger and Mary would have been pregnant.

Now, this got me quite angry. Firstly, the bible doesn't say anything about Gabriel carrying God's seed in his mouth or if it does you should quote chapter and verse. Secondly, pointing a finger and making Mary pregnant is precisely what he did do. Thirdly, Angels (if such exist) are creatures of heaven and neither spirit nor flesh. Moreover they are described as being asexual.

There is another explanation, Jesus was an alien of the same type that originally settled the planet, but far more advanced, possessing powers of healing, levitation and matter transformation. With these gifts he would have created a following much the same as someone possessing the same gifts would be now, if he weren't shot by the government first as they would have seen him as a threat to their power. That happened 2000 years ago as well, didn't it?

I don't think that Jesus had abnormal powers, he was just able to demonstrate the power of faith much further than anyone else (other than Elijah) ever has. People have been killed for doing what jesus did, Martin Luther King is an example that springs to mind.

The book of Mormon does make more sense than the Bible, but again, has a reliance of the deity theory. In which case it comes back to, who created God if God created the world?

I've never had chance to read it so i can't say either way. But to answer the question, God is eternal. Here's a question: If the universe started with the big bang, where did the matter come from to create the big bang in the first place?

[Dr. Shoe]

Let's debate theology in another thread. Back to the topic please ladies and gentlemen!

[Francis]

if you start wondering where the matter came from to start the big bang, then you might start to think that God created it, but we'll just end up running round in circles again. If God created everything, who created God?

[squirrelheels]

God always has been, and always will be. Being human and part of a linear time scale, we are unable to conceive how this can be. God is not part of our world and does not live the way we do. He is outside time.

If we were able to understand God fully, we a) wouldn't be human, and if we were, we would die.

It is futile to think we can understand God. We can partially understand certain aspects of him, but never fully to any extent.

Now, this got me quite angry. Firstly, the bible doesn't say anything about Gabriel carrying God's seed in his mouth or if it does you should quote chapter and verse. Secondly, pointing a finger and making Mary pregnant is precisely what he did do. Thirdly, Angels (if such exist) are creatures of heaven and neither spirit nor flesh. Moreover they are described as being asexual.

This got me quite angry too, and I totally agree with you Dr. Shoe. I did a search through various versions of the Bible, and the only context in which "seed" is mentioned, is in the context of the parable of the sower.

SH

[Francis]

now your debating whether angels exist? If you believe in God , then you believe in all his creations and angels are one them! Next, you'll be saying you don't believe in the devil ! If you check you'll find that God created him as well. I will attempt to find the section on the 'seed' but I doubt I will find it in the modern 'sanitised' version of the bible. I may searching for some time, in much the same way as my mother is still searching for the version that had "he who pisseth against the wall" in.

[azraelle]

You might find it in the JW "green dragon" definitely sanitized version of the Bible but I doubt anywhere else. However, somewhere in OT KJV is a passage that says "...they will eat their own dung and drink their own piss." I will give chapter and verse in a few days.

[Trolldeg]

So, creationists are arguing that evolutionists can't explain where all the matter of the universe were at before the Big Bang, and at the same time agrue that god is beyond time and space and we can't understand her. If god works on a bigger scale than we humans can't grasp, what says the big bang came into being in some way we humans can't fathom? Maybe there was no before, maybe it's been expanding and contracting through eternety. Maybe the universe, at a big enough scale, works in a way we humans can't understand. Personally I "belive" that time and space is curved, that if you travel far enuogh you'll end up were you started.

[Julietta]

If God created Earth in.... is it 6 days (as I said I am uneducated in religion so please bare with me on this)? Then who created the sun which is needed to heat the earth to procure growth in living things and the moon which has the power to alter the tides? In fact who then created the universe which is growing and what is it growing into? Who taught the Egyptians to make batteries and more so to make those spectacular pyramids? All these questions that are yet to be answered although in time I'm sure we will, but unfortunately not in our time, unless someone out there can "beam me up Scotty" and put me back down here in a few hundred years time! We have to have open minds before we can progress, plus an empathy and unity with our fellow man otherwise we will just be stuck in the same old rut, with the same old beliefs, and I think we are getting there slowly but surely, aren't we?

[squirrelheels]

If God created Earth in.... is it 6 days (as I said I am uneducated in religion so please bare with me on this)? Then who created the sun which is needed to heat the earth to procure growth in living things and the moon which has the power to alter the tides? In fact who then created the universe which is growing and what is it growing into? Who taught the Egyptians to make batteries and more so to make those spectacular pyramids?

Nobody taught the Egyptians to do anything. They learnt of their own accord. Much like if you're a small child and you put your hand in the fire you learn that it's hot, and that you shouldn't do it again. (Ok, maybe the latter part is instilled by a parental unit).

God created the heavens AND the earth in 6 days, and rested on the 7th. It says God created light and darkness (i.e. the sun, and also the rotation of the earth to give day and night). He created the moon and the stars, and the moon governs the tides. By "heavens", one can assume that the writer means the universe, although at the time of writing, the concept of the universe wouldn't have been known, so therefore it is referred to as the heavens.

SH

[Francis]

So the Eqyptians learnt the art of battery making by accident, did they? So something came from nothing! To one side of the camp, they would say impossible, someone had to have had an idea to have even tried, while the other side may argue that someone told them, someone who was more advanced technologically. Indeed, there are devices that the Eqyptian had that are still a mystery today depite out technology to analyse it. Considering it was so advanced for it's time, why did it die out? Every Eqyptian with the knowledge didn't all die at the same time. My point is that if it wasn't thought of or foretold, they wouldn't have discovered or used devices of that nature, and if they were so brilliant then why are they not used or elaborated upon today? Try answering that one without involving a supreme being or God because I don't believe that a deity had anything to do with it. A passing alien race perhaps, but not divine intervention! Dr.Shoe, you mentioned in your theory about lifepods of aliens crashlanding in the various areas, do you think that this happened before the land split into the various continents or after? And how would you explain the Anasazi tribe of North American Indians who, by all accounts, were physiologically different from the other native Indians who shared the same lands. Do you think that there were more than one species in this spaceship?

[Julietta]

Nobody taught the Egyptians to do anything. They learnt of their own accord.

Who taught them then? Who was so advanced that they were able to teach the Egyptians how to make batteries and, more so, to design and build those magnificent pyramids, which are architectually perfect, given that they didn't have the high tech equipment and the supposed know how that we have now? More importantly, and to echo Francis, why did it all die out and not progress? Imagine where we would be now had that continued. We can only speculate on this too but something must have happended to hinder that progress.

Hypnosis is something that has been discovered in the last few centuries.

Squirrel I have to contradict you here as I studied hypnosis for 9 months, and then some after. The Egyptians used hypnosis too, only then they were called sooth sayers. Check this site out which states that there are Chinese records as far back as 1600BC recording the use of hypnosis.

http://www.deeptrancenow.com/history.htm

The fact of the matter is, that Christianity banned hypnosis, and anyone caught using it was branded a witch and executed/drowned. It was said that users of it were in cohoots with the Devil and so with all the stage acts that have followed it has been given a bad name. Shame really as it is a natural and powerful tool that we all have within us.......... but that is another topic as I have digressed yet again

It seems to me, unfortunately, that with the onset of religion our progression ceased. I'm not knocking it because it is a way of life for billions of people around the world and in many cases has given help and direction. The hospital I work in has a wonderful lady chaplin who gives peace to many patients who need it regardless of their beliefs. To me though she is just a nice kind giving lady doing a needed job..... I've done it again and gone off the topic, sorry Dr. Shoe

Can I just say folks that I am really enjoying this debate and I have also learnt from it so thanks.

Jxx

[squirrelheels]

Well... Different people's minds work in different ways. For some, logical and methodical explantions must be found to say something is so. Other people just have blind faith. Blind faith is one of those things that either have or you don't. And it is something required to some degree to believe what happened in the Bible. Slightly unrelated... There are only 400 documents proving the existence of Julius Caesar, and about 40,000 documents proving the existence of Jesus. Intersting, isn't it? SH

[Francis]

true, but how many of these documents are from the time period and are actually eye witness accounts? or arey they just stories passed around as rumour until it gets to someone who can write? since the Romans were advanced enough that reading and writing were far more common than the middle east, you can be far more certain that Julius Ceasar, leader of the Roman Empire 100BC-44BC was far more real than Jesus. Roman writings do tell of an uprising in the area and of the time of Jesus, but don't pinpoint any names that relate to Jesus. To the Romans, he would have been yet another body on a cross. The cross becoming a symbol later for a sign of faith. Blind faith at the time was a dangerous thing, since most people then believed in God and we're afraid of him, anyone not believing was put to death. "Oh no, an unbeliever. Kill him before God kills us!" So much for faith. I know blind faith does help some people, but I find that analogous to shutting your eyes and convincing yourself that everythings ok.

[squirrelheels]

Well, ok, it's not so much blind faith as a feeling deep down in my heart that tells me what I believe is right. I've experienced God in a very personal way, and because of that I have no doubt whatsoever that he is real. SH

[Julietta]

I can believe there could have been a man called Jesus whom the people saw as special because of his healing powers and kindness, especially at times when things are bad, someone like that would seem like a light at the end of a tunnel. But no more than that. The only problem I have with religion is that is pigeon holes people into yet more categories. People fight for the sake of their religion and thousands have been killed trying to persuade others that theirs is the right way. A lot of the churches, in what ever religion, contain corrupt and perverted leaders who defile the children that go there in innocence. I work with a lot of Irish nurses who have told me that Ireland has the highest rate of suicide in Europe, and that they are looking into paedophillia from priests as the main cause. I find this quite frightening as these people are trusted by their followers and surely goes against the teachings of God is love eeeeuw I'm digressing again sorry.......... I love the words of John Lennon's Imagine as I think that is how the world should be - ahhh not in my life unfortunately

[Laurieheels]

Let's not get into Roman history, that is a topic all its own, and if we go there, I'll be typing all night! Basically, to touch on that, these Romans did not have a problem with Christianity at the start, they would tolerate many beliefs. It was more about a blief system coming along and saying " you can't believe what you do, we are the only ones that are right". Now, not a good idea when the Romans were very set in their ways and really enjoyed things that way. The polythestic traditions they held had served them well for a long time. Thus, a scapegoat group of people, labaelled a cult, labelled dangerous, because what they sought was to change a fundamental aspect of roman society. And eventually that happened. But I could lecture for hours, and I did not prepare any notes. Thus, digression time.

[Francis]

So, apart from the sanitation, the roads, medicine, education, wine, public baths, arrigation, public order, the fresh water and public health what have the Romans ever done for us! sorry! couldn't resist!!!