Driver8

They weren't all that easy on men in those old days either. Life was brutal, nasty, and short, except for a very small few who lived well and got to look sharp. Now most of us enjoy a living standard far beyond even the kings of old. So let's treat each other well and look beautiful as we do so!

You missed the point.

The problem here is that he could meet the most wonderful woman, and if she is not wearing heels on the first few dates, he wants nothing to do with her.

It is fine if he has a preference for a woman who wears heels, that's not the problem. What is the problem is his attitude towards a woman if she does not.

I don't see what point I missed. There's certainly no shortage of women who will completely blow off a guy she thinks doesn't make enough money for her taste, or is a few inches too short. Would you date a guy 3 inches shorter than you? If you say no, somehow that answer is completely acceptable to voice in public, right? But let a guy say he won't date a woman with a cup size less than B and he's compared to Charlie Manson.

It's not as acceptable for a man to restrict his dating to women who wear high heels as it is for a woman to restrict herself to tall, or older, or successful men, is it?

A Parable.

I went onto a feminist website and started arguing that abortion was murder, female genital mutilation is just a cultural issue, and that women should quit whining about getting paid less. Then I went into a Star Trek website and let them know that Babylon 5 was much better. Oh, and I visited Slashdot and informed them all that Linux just wasn't ready for prime time, and until then, expert programmers stick to Windows. And in every case, I was "really surprised" when my views weren't respected. Didn't they all want to hear my honest opinions?

It was a very wise man who suggested to the young usenet students, in days of yore: Don't feed the trolls.

Lots of interesting studies, but the one referenced is here:

http://www.umich.edu/~mvs330/f98/stilettos/main.html

If you're mugged by a black person, does that mean it makes sense to be afraid of all blacks? If a woman cheats on you and runs off with your money, does it make sense to take it out on all women? If a heel-wearing man rapes you, does it make sense to dislike all heel-wearing men? You say that women think differently, but being female shouldn't be an excuse for stupidity.

Janise wrote, concerning violence against women:

Internet high heel sites have become a source of pages of collected material for concern.

I, for one, am interested why high heels sites would be of interest to anyone researching violence against women,

Will you tell me what Arno's take on the psychology of a shoe fetishist has to do with "Janise's" upcoming testimony on the physical abuse of women? When you toss around this "Janise" story in such a ridiculous manner, implying that Arno's posts can somehow associated with whatever physical abuse "Janise" has suffered, you insult us by pretending you expect us to believe it, and you insult the real Janises out there by trivializing their experiences down to a cheap rhetorical trick.

I'm staring and staring at the picture and I can't understand what I am seeing! The top two items look like an aerial view of sandals lacking the strap, but I still can't figure out how the bottom two things could be used as shoes!

Vanessa, there is a lot of subtlety about the idea of "trends" in the US and UK which I think might be hard to understand. "Trendy" is a bad word over here even with people who are following trends. Individualism is valued by the society, and even conformists don't like to be accused of not thinking for themselves. It's supposed to be a magical coincidence that someone's personal style just happens to be what everyone else is wearing this year.

The drama continues!

Although it seems that Arno is slandering Susan, I find it interesting that he's willing to believe this "Janise" tale. But the "facts" surrounding the story, and its appropriate timing to lend weight to the bizarre notion that men who wear high heels are physically violent, cause me to disbelieve the entire thing. Why should anyone believe what they read here, without a shred of evidence to back any of it? To go further, why would anyone expect anyone else to believe anything? Is it really supposed to be difficult to conceive that there are bored liars in this world, even ones willing to *gasp* assume several login names to perpetrate their childish games?

Why, during any thread with Susan in it, are there so many anonymous posters showing up, sometimes to defend her, and at other times to attack her viciously, ultimately adding proof, of course, to her claims of abuse and victimization? I tell you, someone somewhere is getting much more amusement out of this thread than I am.

And why does every other post by Susan mention violence against women, as if disagreement on a bulletin board is in any way comparable to a punch in the stomach? What an insulting trivialization of a serious issue which has nothing at all to do with anything we discuss on this board! I just don't understand this thread at all. Can someone explain to me why, on a board run by a man who wears heels and never insults anyone, men who wear heels are being characterized as abusers?

Don't let anyone pressure you into apologizing for something you never said.

Looks like we'll have to consider the possibility that maybe some guys have more in their lives than the perpetual skirt chase! Egads, what stereotyping and sexism! Yes indeed, how will I ever hunt bear and drag it back to the cave while wearing my Manolos?

I'll tell you what -- how about you approach me in the parking lot? I demand to be treated by women as an equal, not a cartoon character with a pre-assigned role and preprogrammed responses. Any woman that can't treat me with the same depth and respect she affords other women is not worth any of my time.

It depends on what wearing high heels means to you. For some its important, but for others it's more important to follow the conditions set by those who claim unconditional love. Far from considering the appellation "unmanly" as an insult, as it was recently hurled, I take that as a compliment. "Manliness" is a tool of control used to shame men into opening doors and lifting heavy boxes, dying seven years early working grueling hours at dangerous jobs and never seeing their children grow, and going to the battle lines to get shot defending the financial interests of the wealthy. Heels represent my rejection of all that bullshit! <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Driver8 on 2002-05-28 06:19 ]</font>

I'm from the US, so Firefox and I can sit down over pints of Bass or Newcastle, and trash talk that horrible urine that I am ashamed to admit my fellow Yanks call "beer". <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Driver8 on 2002-05-21 21:01 ]</font>

It may be "logical", but it's not theoretical. It's the way I conduct my business. I won't let anyone cramp my style. But I don't say that from a position of smug self-righteous superiority; I say it to encourage people who are on the edge, to let them know that the waters of freedom are the perfect temperature. And no, you won't drown! You'll only wonder why you waited so long. <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Driver8 on 2002-05-20 23:04 ]</font>

You fear your wife? I wonder how a forum would respond if the genders were reversed. If a woman posted, telling how her husband would not allow her to wear *, and so forth. I can imagine the outrage. It would not be pretty. <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Driver8 on 2002-05-20 22:59 ]</font>

Is this font really small? Without accepting your mate as they are, and allowing them to express themselves and their individuality, where's the respect? Where's the love? All that's there is the desire for a warm body to play out roles, roles that were developed before the mate was met, and have nothing to do with them. It's more like an employment contract. "I need someone to do A, B, and C, and if they want to do D and E they'll have to repress it because that's not in the contract". There is no symmetry between respecting someone by letting them be themselves, and respecting someone's fears by repressing oneself. <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Driver8 on 2002-05-20 17:14 ]</font>

Some cynical books advise men to dress like their bosses, to curry favor with them. I guess they didn't have this in mind! Way to go, SQ!

How sad if a woman feels her greatest value to her husband is only her femininity, and not her individuality. Her individuality makes her irreplaceable: "Jane Q." is the best Jane Q. out of six billion people! But in terms of femininity, she is outdone by most of the chicks on TV and in the magazines. She is turning herself into something of a prostitute or a porn actress: a painted symbol of an abstract archetype. And it will fade with age, whereas her individuality will only get stronger. Acting roles are temporary, truth is eternal! Just droppin' some science...anyone who thinks I am attacking femininity here as a concept hasn't understood what I mean and shouldn't bother responding. I'm not trying to start a flame war, only kick around some potent ideas...

Without the gender role issue (she wants a manly man), how does having a femme husband threaten her femininity at all? Is it so weak that it requires masculinity to contrast it, like a tall person who only wants to be seen next to short people so they appear that much taller? In summary, if a woman is comfortable with her femininity, she is assured that it will remain there no matter who she associates with. One thing I never understood about non-androgynes is how they respect each other. If I were a manly man, I would not understand femininity, and if I were being honest, would disdain and reject it as being weak, frivolous, stupid, and shallow. The same goes for femme women -- what can they possibly see in masculine men, since they don't admire those qualities? If they did admire those qualities, they would aspire to them for themselves. But if a femme woman (or masculine man) wants respect and understanding, and not just expectations of service and traditional theatre roles, they'll need someone who has some of other energy themselves.

I think I saw this on the Phil Donahue show years ago. A dominatrix in heels stood and jumped on this fellow's chest, who did not appear to be in pain and presumably enjoyed the experience.

I don't have a problem with women who don't like men in heels, I simply wouldn't date one of them! The deeper issue for me is that if she doesn't like it, it's probably because she likes traditional gender roles (or at least that the man remain in his traditional role whereas she is free to do what she likes). But the traditional male role is a form of self-sacrificial slavery, and I won't play that role for anyone...

Almost all brides stick with 2 inches on their wedding day, because of all the standing and walking they're expected to do. You'll see this thread come up on usenet, here.