Susan (the original)

I don't believe the commitment of being sworn into the military and the promise and taking of marriage vows can be put in the same column or even remotely held to the same set of critical standards. In the context of marriages I completely agree with your belief and dedication of "work it until it works". I'll repeat myself, I completely agree with you, but only as long as "both" parties are being realistic, fair, and HONEST. In every marital situation there are two sides and most often two versions surrounding the cause and eventual decay of the relationship. There isn't enough room on this forum to explore all the causes. In the end, at the end of the day, it all boils down to personal behavior. There's that word again. I'm going to make a statement here and I'm going to ask that it be taken only in the text of the words. You said you "...do not believe the right to say NO is absolute", referring to the commitment of marriage. I have to disagree. Your ex-wife proved it's absolute, as per your description of your misfortune, and apparently the law sided with her. Please, please don't misunderstand me. I am in noooo way condoning her actions. I haven't any grounds to do that. I'm only addressing the reality. My heart goes out to you and your son and I wish you the very best. I do admire your courage in sharing what you've been through. Again, my heart goes out to you. As I pointed out in my previous post of 12/29, I didn't take this thread to the discussion I had originally intented and explained why. We can't change history and past behavior, we can only hope to learn from it. Very respectfully Susan

Christmas and Holiday travels and activities have kept me busy, hense my delay to reply. I rather imagine the fundamental topic of this thread has run it's course. It was a bit disappointing there weren't more contributors. However, all of the discussions were thorough and obviously well meant. I appreciate that and thank everyone. At the onset my intention was to bring this thread around to the same set of questions I presented on the "girls" section concerning a post dated 6/20/06. It surrounded a post from a girl with long time extablished values and beliefs which were in direct conflict with some of her boyfriends ideas and desires, more specifically his high heels. When I read her post I "heard" her repeatedly say "NO". In all of the replies to her post no one else seemed to hear that. Now, after the sincere conversations we've had here, I don't believe any purpose would be served to carry that discussion further. I haven't changed my thoughts about it. The behavior speaks for itself and the history is in place. During this thread the topic of being permanently in heels has been touched on. From a very personal point of view, this is another reality where a woman's "NO" is all too often ignored. I'm not simply talking about a man's pressuring of a woman to spend all her waking hours in heels, but rather a woman's "NO" to someone else's (self appointed experts) explanation of her choices in life style. (I hope I said that so it makes sense) The life style I'm speaking of is that like mine. On another thread I made the comment that my life and life style is worlds away from that which is typically portrayed on these web sites. There's no adversarial intent in that comment, it's simply a statement of fact. For 34 years my feet have been a virtual straight line extension of my lower legs accented by the lasting arc of my ankles. My toes remain comfortably at a sharp angle at the end of my feet. I'm a little woman, size 5 (US) feet. In serious heels I stand with both feet in a space no larger then a coffee cup saucer. (The sole of both shoes and heel tips) "NO", I do not have a high heel fetish, period! Susan

I really appreciate the open and thoughtful replies. We've taken it to a bit more detail that I had expected, but that's certainly OK with me. I said at the beginning this could wander where ever we wanted it to. Certainly, for what might be obvious reasons, my primary interest in this discussion surrounds a woman's prerogative, actually a right (still don't like that word), of personal defense. That includes a personal defense of her beliefs and values. NO, I won't do that. NO, you're not going to do that to me. NO, I don't like that. I'm sure you know what I mean. We've already covered the difference between personal defense and simply being obstinate. For this portion we can move on and look past the concept of being obstinate. At what point is "NO" accepted by the other party. How many times does she (or whom ever) have to say "NO" before whatever she is saying "NO" to ceases? How far does she have to go in her defense. Personally, I'm stead fast firm on this. My husband called it "deliberately determined". If I say "NO" that's exactly what I mean. In my personal life, in the life style I have, it's very seldom that I stand my ground with a "NO". When my husband says "NO" I know exactly what he means, "NO". All of it for the very reasons pointed out in jmc's post. Our values and beliefs are very much the same. We know that, not because we told each other, but because we see it constantly in each others behavior. We are as jmc described "in tune" with each other. I was married to my first husband 31 years when he passed away. I am very familiar with that concept. Now, outside of my family, I'm not in the least bashful about saying "NO" when I deem it appropriate. I've already clearly stated that in other posts on other threads. If, as everyone has stated, a woman (or anyone) has the option to say "NO", it only stands to reason she should expect the other party to accept it. Am I right or wrong? Susan

It's been a long day, I've had a full evening of Christmas season partying, and it's late but I wanted to at least reply in short. It's seems everyone pretty much has the same ideas or thoughts, we just have different ways of saying them. Saying "NO" to protect or defend one's self is a lot different than saying "NO" simply to be obstinate, and there's a vast amount of room inbetween. Additionally, without question, I agree saying "NO" certainly is not gender or age specific. While I don't think I implied that, I won't ignore the reality of the magnitude of female victims. I mentioned in a previous post on another thread the term "rights" is sort of a thorn in my side. But that's because of the behaviors and results there of that I've experienced the past few years. It's just something I'm coming to grips with. Virtually every discussion of this type that I've been involved in turns to the growing of or distruction of relationships. It seems, from many of the comments, we're all on the same page. People enter into a relationship with the idea they'll change the "other" partner. Again, on another post on another thread I used the words, "of the two of us there is only one I can change". One dozen words that carry a message with incredible truth. In any couples relationship where signficant differences arise after time, one of or both of the individuals misrepresented themselves to the other. Inevitably this comes around to another issue, that of honesty. Again, please don't misunderstand, this is not gender specific. I don't care who or what the situation, I simply don't accept "excuses" as "reasons" for behavior. The one thing I probably don't agree with here is the "stereotypical" thing. In todays society, "stereotypical" can be attached to any number of behaviors. Again, it simply becomes an excuse for behavior, good or bad. Getting back to the "women's prerogative to say no", the issue of permanency in heels was mentioned in closing comments in a post on the other thread where this discussion started. I believe it was Chris explaining an opinion and expressing legitimate concern. When I read some of what has been written about it throughout the forum I simply want to scream. And I want to scream "NO" to nearly everything I read. The idea of men wanting to "make" their wife or girlfriend commited permanently to high heels to satisfy a fetish is simply sick. Some of the suggestions and the inadequacy of information is alarming. On another new thread in the for everyone section a man asked for help in convincing his wife to spend more time wearing heels. Several members offered some very good thoughs that carried a lot of truth. Then someone suggested locks. Here we are with the fetish and behavior thing. I came around to this because this touches on some of the "behavior" toward women we've aided in the past years. It also lands directly on Chris's concerns I mentioned above. At the end of the day it all boils down to one thing, behavior, and what happens to the woman when she says no. Susan A parting question. The post times and nature of comments surrounding the locks, are reversed?

A nice conversation among some pleasant gentlemen and my self on another thread managed to get too far off the assigned topic, so let's keep it going here. Please, anyone, join in. I'm a female, so through all my experience in life, passing conversations tend to wander through all manner of topics. So, as far as I'm concerned this one can wander, but not off the edge. Continuing the discussion between Peter, Jay, and Chris, I used this title because I feel very strongly about it. I think it's fair that I try to address some of the points already opened in our discussion in the "HHplace died...Why was..." thread. Chris, you're correct, I don't use the same brush to paint all men who choose to wear heels. As I said in earlier posts, I've continued long time contacts with gentlemen who elect to wear heels. It's all about behavior. The part that must be remembered/respected is that I make the choice about acceptable behavior, no one makes that decision for me. (I'm reasonably sure those same words hold true for everyone reading this.) When I'm in the chat room with old friends (some dating back over 8 years) and the discussion drifts off to men and their high heels I simply excuse myself. I don't give anyone a hard time. Most of those same gentlemen respect my feelings and never push any male heel wearing agenda during our conversations. Actually, we discuss most everything except shoes. Family, vacations, new homes, etc. Today, this same type of respect holds true in e-mail exchanges. On the other side of the coin, as you mentioned, I've had, and through others, been involved in far too many nasty and cruel experiences surrounding men obcessed with high heels. Years ago on these websites and forums I defiantely argued to defend myself, my husband, and even my children. The dozens of abused women I've come in contact with were very much at the same loss. Arguing to defend themselves. It doesn't do any good, it only excalates the abuse. We've learned! So now we simply take the behavior laid upon us and share it. Supporting documentation is plentiful, arrest reports, hospital and court records, the internet, etc. Basically it's, We said "NO" and this is what happened. On the subject of style, fashion, stereotypes and such, for my part that's all simply a load of excuses and not reason for anything. If you don't like it, don't wear it, I don't. I sense from some of the sentiments already expressed some of us are in some agreement on that. When I see cable programs or anything else where some self appointed individual or group of individuals want to tell me what I'm supposed to wear the only thing that comes to my mind is, WHAT PART OF "NO" DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND. I have my personal preferences, my husband has his preferences, and we agree. A bit on the comical side, he is terrible at putting color combinations together. Slacks, shirt, tie, jacket, so I usually pick the colors. If he frowns at me, I pick something else. On the subject of heels, I refuse to purchase and wear what someone else is dictating. For instance, the long pointed toes, I dispise them. Sandals, I refuse to wear them, but not only because of style. The endeavor I embarked on 35 years ago to achieve a desired manner always in very high heels, was done with deliberate intent and understandable caution. The intent was the desired exceptional manner, the permanency was the understandable result (with caution). Hense, no sandals. I'm out of time for this evening. Susan

With so much that has been written here and the deeply felt considerations I'm not sure where to start. It is refreshing to see the amount of thought that has been triggered by this thread. Chris, I'm going to hit on a bit of reality here. You have an unfavorable opinion of choices I made for myself. You expressed it about my permanent heels. I can understand that. In the scope of plain reason I might also be able to appreciate it. Please, I'm not taking a jab at you, I only wish to make a point. So, I have an unfavorable opinion of men wearing high heels. (and most of the other things that have been mentioned on the recent posts) What I have learned in the past 9 years is women aren't 'allowed' to have a decenting opinion surrounding men and heels. History is an incredible teacher, and it continues to this day. To make a very long story very short, for years on these forums I stood my ground defending myself and women in general. Many of the threads are still in place. Many have been edited or completely deleted. I'm not simply speaking of this forum. From the old sites they're all gone. I took an incredible amount of heat, verbal abuse, and have been called everything except human. This went on for about 4 years. My e-mail address was openly available and common knowledge. I used to speak of 2 kinds of e-mails I received, (1) those that were very kind and written with interest, and (2) those that were full of pure contempt and hate for me and my kind. There was a 3rd kind of e-mail I never mentioned, for what will be obvious reasons. I started receiving e-mails from wives/girlfriends caught in abusive situations. Through their husbands/boyfriends activity on the internet the women witnessed what was happening to me and others. What came to the surface was the same kind of contempt and hate expressed on the internet was taking place in their homes. One of the first I came in touch with is a woman about half my age now blind in one eye with a disfigured face after the beating she took. Wearing heels and a dress he laid down the law to her and she said "NO". It's called abuse and domestic violence. That's where I've been the past 3 years, taking a stand where it will be heard. For the gentlemen who elect to wear heels, be my guest, enjoy yourself, I simply don't care. But when that woman says "NO", she don't mean "maybe". I really don't care to hear about style or fashion or stereotyping as an "excuse" for behavior. It's noteable here that with most any mention of a woman's will and choice to say "no", it's met with contempt. Plain and simple. Interestingly enough it even takes place in the "girls section". Chris, on a personal picture, I've had 2 incidents with high heel or fetish obcessed men. We have stalking laws in this country and when properly used they work. In one circumstance a wealth of issues surfaced, above and beyond my complaint and charges. He's now in prison. For what it's worth that one originated on the internet. Peter and Jay, there's a lot that goes on in a faction of this world that simply is beyond me. It's none of my business, nothing can be done about it, at least until someone else is suffering for it. Your thoughts are well taken and appreciated. I said this in another post but I'm going to repeat it. I lost my first husband to cancer and remarried a couple years later. Two incredible men, neither with any fixation with high heels. I believe it was Dr. Shoe who said the forum will be only as good as the people make it. Absolutely true. The effort and time put forth by the individuals responsible for the forum is obviously tremendous. They are to be thanked and appreciated. Time will become history and that will demonstrate what the members elect to do. There's an incredibly wonderful world out there, I do enjoy it very much. I have everything a woman could dream of or want and I've had 2 incredible men to thank for it. With that, I will for the rest of my life regret having told of and shared my choices and lifestyle. Respectfully to all here Susan

Time will tell. I believe I'm safe in saying I've got as much experience with these forums as most anyone here. (9 years) I recently reopened my membership after a friend brought to my attention the forum had been reorganized. I even received an e-mail from hhplace telling me the forum had been "cleaned up". Personally, my belief structure, my values, my experiences, and my life style are "worlds away" from that which is typically depicted on these forums and websites. There's no adversarial intent in that comment. It's simply a statement of fact about me. Those who have known me for the past 9 years know exactly what I'm talking about. It's all about behavior. It's no secret I don't fancy men in high heels. At the same time I don't be-little them, I don't call them names, nor do I harrass them. I never have. Again, anyone who has known me for 9 years would have to attest to that. I've met some incredibly nice gentlemen here (who elect to wear heels) and remain in contact with them. On the other hand if I described what the high heeled males have done to me and several women like me, the moderators would be busy deleting my posts. If I described what I've experienced helping other women in the past 5 years I would be banned from the forum. It falls under the heading of "ignore the obvious and deny the reality". Again, it's all about behavior. This will probably come as a shock, but I believe the rule denying the fellas participation on the girls section was counter productive. The recent gender poll directly suggests about a third of the "girls" are probably fellas. So why bother. All it should have taken was the insistance of some fundamental respect. Again, it's all about behavior. Presently there is a post on the "Ultra high heels........" section about getting permanently high heeled feet dated 12/7/06. It was posted by a new member, user125. He scripted some well thought out questions with what I think is a genuine interest. The majority of his post dealt with pregnancy, birth, and early child care. I've been there, done that, twice. I was 35 the second time. I'm now 57. I truly believe this gentleman deserves a complete sincere answer. When I tried to discuss those realities a few years ago all the male experts insisted they knew more about it than I did. Someone wanted to know if I had an orgasm during child birth (what a discusting thought) since my feet were permanently in a high heel arch. The really noteable thing was NO ONE found anything wrong with the comment including the moderators. I don't know about the rest of the women here but child birth is something very very very special to me. Again, it's all about behavior. I've considered posting a comprehensive reply to user125. But you know what, he didn't even give us a name to say hello to. My name is Susan, that's what is on my birth certificate. Again, it's all about behavior. I really don't care if someone uses a fictious name. But gosh, use Bill, Joe, Charlie, Doug, or some sense of a name. It seems most of the girls around here do. Common decency and fundamental respect. The door was opened for this discussion so I got up on my soap box. I do that a bit frequently but in other places. Susan

GeorgiaMarie, your words are music to my ears and speak well of you. I appreciate an admiring glance as much as anyone and "appropriate" passing conversation is welcome. Susan

Hello Stilletos Your question hits squarely on issues and women's lives I've delt with for over 5 years. To be fair, so you understand, I'm a 9 year veteran of these forums / high heel websites. It's been 3 years since I posted here but my work has kept me knowledgeable of events. Also, so you understand, I'm a 57 year old woman with a slightly unique background in heels. My first husband died of cancer, I've since remarried, both incredibly good men. Neither one of them had / has any kind of fixation or obcession for high heels. As a result of my experiences on the internet I was pulled into women's issues of safety, abuse if you will, from sexual harassment in the work place to domestic violence in the home, and everything in-between. At the time of my departure from these forums 3 years ago, I was active in the efforts of 7 women to find help. Today that number has grown to 114. I must tell you your situation saddens and disturbs me. While I personally don't approve of it, your desire to wear high heels is entirely your business. Having said that, it should have been made known to your wife 19 years ago when she had a "reasonable" opportunity to make a very "personal" decision about what she wanted in "her" life. She has been denied a significant portion of that opportunity. You have no choice but to tell her. No one here including myself can tell you the words to use. You "know" her, we don't. I'm going to tell you something else in conflict to what you've already been told. She doesn't "know" you. While I can't / won't suggest what to say to her, I will tell you how to treat her. Patience, understanding, and respect like you never realized you had. Whatever her decision, it is her choice, TOTALLY. not yours. If she says NO, that's exactly what she means. I'm going to tell you another reality you won't hear on these forums. "Of the two of us there is only one I can change". Now you say it and hear the words. I do deeply hope and pray everything works out for the both of you. That "is" my wish. Susan

Again, it's all a matter of who we are, how we're put together, and personal preference. As Bubba suggested, we haven't the real ability of "choosing" our foot size. I thank you for the comments and the discussion has been a bit of a pleasure. The only thing I have to disagree with is the idea we have no problem finding small sizes. Actually it often becomes quite difficult. All you have to do is look through a couple of the online catalogs and you'll nice the available sizes usually "start" as size 6. Many of the sandals styles are offered in size 5 but since I refuse to wear sandals it isn't any help. Even in some cases if a size 5 is offered in a style with an advertised 5" heel, it usually is really a 4 1/2" or possibly a 4" heel. So, when it comes to the size/ratio thing that's been discussed, it works both ways. I learned long long ago, when I found a pair of shoes I liked I didn't just buy one pair. Because of the infrequent demand for the small sizes it wasn't unusal for stores to stock only a few pair of any particular style. It wasn't unusal for me to buy "all" of the style I liked, most often of different colors. One of the more recent memories of that was when Wild Pair was still in business. There were two stores within an hours drive of my home. When the stores got in a new order of heels they would call me. Don't misunderstand, I didn't rush right over and when I did get to the store if I didn't like what they had I surely didn't make any purchases. In the 70's there was a store named Chandlers. They had good quality high and very high heels in a wide selection of styles, many attractively unusual styles, very often in my size 5. To this day, I still have shoes I've never worn. The custom made heels I had made in the 70's and early 80's are also still in my closets. All of this may sound a bit foolish but it was necesary because of the lack of small sizes. The present styles and even those of the past few years are not of my preference, I don't like them so thank goodness I have my own selection. Susan

High Surprise I must admit you descriptions, thoughts, and appreciation surrounding the realities of women with small feet wearing very high heels is music to my ears. Wez, in answer to your question, my feet are size 5 (US) which I think is just a bit smaller than the size 4 you mentioned. Acording to the size charts your wifes size 4 would be the same as a size 5 1/2 (US). I don't know how much faith can be put in the charts, the one on Jenny's measurement page, as it lists size 5 1/2 feet as 9.4" long. That's nearly a full inch longer than my feet are. I've been in and out of these forums for approximately 5 years and many of the long time participants and readers are familiar with me. There are some realities, one of them being not all feet are created equal, even those of the "same size". When it comes to the heel height possible in the small sizes there are several realities. The basic laws of math apply, as they always do (in reality ). A full 6" heel on a true size 5 (US) is a stretch of reality. Remember, it's a small foot and it isn't very long. Additionally, the bone and joint structure of the ankle, foot, and toes determines for the most part the limits of heel height. The word "training" was used in a previous post to this topic. Some enhancement can be achieved and that is going to vary to a significant degree. I've taken a lot of criticism surrounding the training effort I put forth many years ago, yet absolutely no one "knows" what I did. For me in a 5 1/4" to 5 1/2" heel, the heel tip is 1" from the sole of the shoe as best I can measure it. My instep is arched forward over the bend of my toes, not because of an overly arched foot, but because the position of my heel bone, I'm fortunate, is very steep, blending the bend of my ankles with the arch of my feet. My toes are very short, will bend exceedingly tight, and are slightly gathered. For this and the fact that I've learned to instinctively make no use of my toes has made wearing heels with very short pointed toes for many years possible. With my feet side by side I stand in a space no larger than a tea cup saucer. It creats the silhouette I worked to achieve long ago, petite, delicate, pleasingly attractive, balanced on the smallest of pedestals, the end of my feet. All manner of motion and walk must be fluid, unencumbered in appearance, with spirit and delightfully feminine. Being small, I'm 5', and wearing very high heels presents a host of unyielding realities. Our legs are short, our stride is by nature shorter than usual, and the heels demand an even shorter stride, which means we must take more and quicker steps. (I can assure you that when walking with a group of people there is rarely any consideration. I suppose no one ever really thinks about it.) A knee length straight or tapered skirt in my size 3 or 5, (very small hem) compliments the very high heels, is attractive and flatters my silhouette (figure), is hobbling at my knees and restricts in unyielding reality my manner of fluid motion and walk. I've posted on other topics commenting on such things as stepping onto a fast moving escalator. With short legs, extreme heels, and a tight skirt, it takes a quick step with spirit without losing my balance. It's all a matter of preference, who we are and how we're put together. In my mind God made me a little woman with small feet. It's just me and my personality. Susan

Until now I've avoided participation in any of the discussions about the probability or improbability of wearing 7" heels all day. It all just seemed a bit silly. What's the difference in that and a little woman with size 4 feet standing in 4" heels all day. The fundamentals of basic math dictate when limits are approached, the higher the heel relative to shoe size the bigger the foot. Toss in a little bit of progressive geometry and the same thing is reinforced. When I saw mention of a 7" heel (arch) on a size 5 it was apparent that fantasy and absense of all reality had set in. A 7" heel is impossible on a size 5. A full 6" heel on a size 5 is a stretch of the imagination. When extremes are reached the angle of the "heel plate" of the shoe becomes progressively steeper, no secret there. The reality is all feet are not created equal. The limit of the forward rotational arc of the ankle, the pitch of the foot, and the angle of the heel bone, like it or not, establishes what is and isn't achievable. All you have to do is review the multitudes of pictures of extreme heels and it's obvious the contour of the foot does not match or fit the contour of the extreme heel shoe in most cases. Occasionally, very rarely, a person will have ankles capable of an enhanced arc with a high pitched heel bone, much more compatable with extreme heels. Even then there are limits. The geometric absolutes require the heel height to be less than the linear length from the base of the shank to the back of the heel plate, which must be less than the surface length from the base of the shank to the back of the heel plate. I don't know that a progressive formula is needed. A simple percentage of heel height to length of foot (ball to end of heel) might be a lot easier. In the end, so what! Why worry about it. Susan

I'll try the last paragraph over again! Now, on the other side of the coin, as I've stated in previous posts, actually many posts, I have met some incredibly nice gentlemen (heel wearers) on these forums. While I openly disagree with the concept, no one with an ounce of honesty can claim I have ever resorted to name calling, harassment, or character assassinations. Likewise those gentlemen, knowing and understanding my feelings, have treated me with the utmost respect. There, that's better.

Highluc, if you believe my comment of a vendetta defending women was meant to be a blow to Julietta (it wasn't) then surely (if you have paid any attention to my writings) your comment of "cloning" was intended to attack my religious values. I can use the same short sighted reasoning you do. Now, in a bit of an attempt to put some reality and peace in all of this for the new year, as many have hoped for, can we look at this from a purely rational logical view for a moment. In Julietta's first post responding to me with her explanation of the boyfriend - girlfriend scenario only part of the story was made evident. It was incomplete. I stand by my comments in my return response because in the picture that was presented the young woman was, by any reasonable standards, being wronged and treated dishonestly. In Julietta's second response to me it turns out the love relationship involving her two friends is one of "tolerance". The girl insults the guy, the guy insults the girl, his penchant for wearing high heels is a constant conflict, there's no forseeable solution, it's all societies fault, but they are in love. OK, so be it, honestly that arrangement is beyond me and it's not my problem, so enough of it. Twice in Julietta's comments it was made clear she was irritated that I had even questioned the girl's safety and it shouldn't have to be explained to me, that I'm a trouble maker and only wanted to start an argument. Nooo, I was most definitely concerned about what was indicated as happening to the young woman, that prompted my comment of, "If (and I repeat "if") I have a vendetta.................". I did, very honestly, vigorously emphasize Julietta's words as I had read them in her posts. I didn't know any other way to make myself understood. Obviously it didn't work. Julietta, I don't believe I made any attacks on you or wished any ill on you, if that is what you interpreted I offer you an open apology. Much of my emotion surrounding this topic of what women think about men wearing high heels centers on the contempt and hate directed at those of us who, for whatever reason, don't want to be a part of it. You mentioned that I seemed to be so terribly hurt by all of this. Your observation is quite fair and correct. Through my efforts to assist my friend with her needs, financial, legal, and otherwise, I was introduced to a dark side of society, abuse. I've witnessed first hand the physical and emotional aftermath of too many such incidents. You indicated you've seen your share so you know what I mean. After attending hearings, participating on panels (forums) and commissions on abuse, and doing research I had to distance myself from it. I see things for what they are and so much of what goes on here re-enforces what we learned on the panels. So yes Julietta, when I recognized the obvious dishonest treatment of the young lady in your "first" description, I responded in her defense. If I'm to be chastised for that, so be it. For our research one of the most convenient places for us to find contempt, hate, and superiority "attitudes" toward women, or anyone for that matter, man or woman, was on the internet. I've been here approximately five years Julietta. Through the efforts of a lot of people we have saved and categorized over three years worth of -- well, you can't imagine. And to keep the record straight, I'm not just talking about what takes place on these forums or what has happened to me. All we had to do was start asking the right questions to the right people in the right places and the truths start to surface. I'm going to be told I'm off topic, but really I'm not. "What do women think about men wearing high heels"? They've certainly made an impression on me. Now, on the other side of the coin, as I've stated in previous posts, actually many posts, I hve me some incredibly nice gentlemen (high heel wearers) on these forums. While I openly disagree with the concept, no one with an ounce of honesty can claim I've ever resorted to name calling, harassment, or character assassinations. Likeweise those gentlemen, knowing and understanding my feelings, have greated me with the utmost respect. Happy New Year Susan

Hello - No Julietta, you were very specific and quite articulate in your descriptions. You said, "He can't even show his collection to his own girlfriend. He has to hide................". Now in retrospect you completely change your story. That doesn't change anything in the realities of what I pointed out in my response. Everyone here read the same thing I did in your post and they all jumped on board. If I have a vendetta it's in defense of the treatment of women. For some strange reason you seem to find that unacceptable. Susan

Once again I don't even know where to start. I'm almost past trying to make any sense of this and every time I try to give benefit of doubt, the realities I've contended for so long are once again demonstrated. Hany any demeaning identity on me you want, I just don't care anymore. I have feelings, deep heart felt emotions, and I deeply care about people too. Quoting Julietta telling about her friend and his girlfriend - "He has to hide who he is because he fears ridicule and it's not fair because he is a lovely kind hearted person who deserves to wear what he feels comfortable in wearing". This lovely kind hearted person is perpetrating a lie through deception and deliberately misrepresenting himself to a young woman whom he is in a relationship with. Everyone here has agreed with his actions. Obviously and without question this young woman "deserves" absolutely no consideration, no respect for "her" values, and no thought of the potential emotional devastation if and when she learns of the "real" him. His desire and right to wear high heels is more important. This is the " reality" of the description and explanation Julietta outlined. I've been a widow for nearly two years. Some day I may meet another man I cherish and fall in love with. If we were to wed and I learned of such a trait in his character, I can't comprehend the emotional destruction I would suffer. Now, I hope someone here tries to "tell" me if I loved him I'm "supposed" to accept him and his hidden desires. My response to that - NO, absolutely not. He is not the man, not the person I fell in love with. Quite possibly the young woman mentioned above may have similar dreams and values as mine. Every time the history of men wearing heels in certuries past is so proudly brought before us, I have to wonder. During those era's in time women were considered inferior beings. Any woman who dared to defy a man's control was punished, tortured, and even put to death. Wonderful culture wasn't it!

JeffB - You're fortunate to work in such a congenial office environment and it's nice to hear the women around you are respectful toward your preference in shoes. For what it's worth, if I were in that office you would get no criticism or harassment from me. Honestly, I probably would try to avoid the discussions about your shoes, but be a part of the group, and just go about my job as pleasantly as possible. If you treat me as an associate I'll certainly treat you as an associate. On the other hand, considering the clothes and heels I generally wear, if you found it necessary to approach me on that subject I would try to be courteous but brief. From the lessons I've learned on the internet, I would be very uncomfortable in that situation. Honestly, I've never had to work or had a job so I can't speak to any particular office arrangement as such. We don't know whether the 95% is 95% of 10 people or 50 people. In the past couple years I have had the opportunity to be in organizational tour meetings with a couple dozen people, mostly all men. I usually tend to raise an eye brow when people tell me they know what other people are thinking. In the office setting above if you think you know what I, or anyone else was thinking, rest assured you are kidding yourself. Let's reverse the scenario and put a woman such as myself in an office setting made up of 95% men. If you are going to try to tell me the comments made after she leaves are the same as the comments made in front of her, forget it! Wouldn't if be nice if we could have some "open minded" men who could see a well dressed woman in incredible heels as a female human being rather than a throw away sex object. You don't know, I don't know, no one "knows" what someone else is thinking, they only think they do. Susan

"She thinks that women who sit in front of mirror day in, day out, painting their nails and wondering when their next hair appointment is should be taken outside, put in a big hessian sack and shaken". That's quote from one of the moderaters of this forum. Now, to the best of our knowledge those women haven't bothered or harmed him or his wife in any way. No one on the forum who read it had any problem with the comment. Ok, that's fine, no harm done and none intended I'm sure, it's only an emphasized expression of opinion, and I believe it wasn't referring to me. But, if I used exactly the same words to describe my opinion of men wearing high heels the onslaught of attacks accusing me of being everything from a racist to a mindless idiot would be hurled at me, or any other woman. This whole mess surrounding these discussions is a lesson in hypocrisy. It isn't a matter of "should" or "shouldn't", it's a matter of perference and personal values. I'm female, a woman, I'm not pretend or some fantasy, I'm quite real, with my religious values, and I know exactly who I am. Whatever someone else is, wants to be, wants to wear or do, enjoy as they wish is none of my business, and they are welcome to it. But, I will not be forced to agree with it. Julietta, I might ask that you read my original post on this topic on page four. It's more accurate and honest as anything ever written on these forums. Many of the long time participants here witnessed or participated in the events I briefly outlined. I only ask that you read and interpret it as I wrote it. You will notice in the posts which followed, no one denied it or found anything wrong with what happened. You're a woman, tell me how I'm supposed to feel about all of this or how you might feel. Please don't misunderstand. I must emphasize I've met a lot of incredibly nice people here and some of us have managed to find a pleasantly common respect for each other. My e-mail address isn't available on the forum list but I'll get it to you if you would like. Susan

Trolldeg - That's the most refreshing thing I've ever seen you post. Now I (we) need not expect more of your attacks. We'll just keep our distance. Firefox and Francis - How is it that with so many men here claiming to know how and what all woman think, can there be so much continued confusion in these discussions? And yes Francis these discussions are relavent to the topic in my opinion. We keep using the same words but we're talking about different things. We can try to address some of the confusion. In my post with the comment "....who taught the high heel wearing beast......." I was referencing a comment made by Firefox in an earlier post, "We are trained to act the way we do......". If that's true my comment was a fair question. Then there is the idea of a woman being a savage because of the way she was raised. I agree with the desciption and analysis completely. Now in a different angle of discussion with the shoe on the other foot, "we are free thinking, free acting beings....". What happened to the "we are trained to act....."? Which way is it? This is a bit confusing and again it's all relevant to the discussion. The obsurd irony of this whole thing is we're arguing about the same thing from different views. You don't want to be told what or how to think and I (we) don't want to be told what we have to like or think. Why is it that women (or men) who don't care for the idea of men in high heels are closed minded, but men who wear high heels "aren't" closed minded to the individual values of other people? It's a basic question, deserves a basic answer. Rest assured they are just as closed minded as we are. If I don't close this, the computer glitch will lock me out. We can open the "traditional" question on another post. I'll be as patient and understanding as anyone wants to be to work through this confusion. Like I said, the world is a beautiful place, a bit of understanding goes a long way to bring people together but we can't keep talking in circles. Susan

Whoops!! -- Fellas, there was no offense taken and I understood with appreciation what Hoverfly wanted to express. My second post here was made only to explain why, after so long, I posted my information on this topic line. I'm afraid the last sentence of the post was completely misinterpreted, my fault, and I'm sorry I said it poorly. Bubba, we've known each other for a long time. We've laughed, shared our sorrows over lost loved ones, and enjoyed much in-between. Let's you, I, and everyone who wants to, get back to those times and enjoy again. Susan

Gosh, I can't let Firefox down. Since we're talking about a savage woman as the result of her up-bringing, I might ask who "taught" the high heel wearing beast that tore into and tried to rape my friend? You see, on Oct 8 Francis insisted there was no contempt or hate on the forums for women who refused to comply and that it was nonsense to suggest there was. Than in the same post he said all such things were edited. If it wasn't here then why was it edited? I think that falls under the heading of "closed minded"! Lion has touched on a bit of reality and truth of which I have to agree with. The world is a pretty beautiful place (I do a lot of traveling), it's the people that tend to mess it up. In Lion's thoughts about what people say to our face and what they say behind our backs is probably the most honest thing I've seen in a while. Certainly in my life in heels it's happened to me and I'm not talking about what's taken place on these forums. (though it has happened) It comes under, "I would never say it to his / her face but............". I can safely say I've never been in a room or anything else full of women all with the same opinion on anything. If that's the impression someone has, at least a few of those in the room fell over laughing when it was safe. I might refer back to my post of May 26th (page 4). That's as honest as it comes. No where in that post did I make any threats, attacks, or name calling. I just don't want any part of it. Now, if the intent of the responding participants wasn't to impose or demand that I comply with the standards set forth, what was it. The only response should have been, "I'm sorry you feel that way but I don't think you're being fair" or something to that affect. Instead I was accused of starting a war. I refused to change. The closed minded idea that keeps being tossed about is absolutey laughable. It doesn't seem anyone here is open minded about a traditional woman.

Though I've been active on these forums for around 4 years it was becoming more and more apparent many of todays participants don't know anything about me. Because of my spiritual (religious) convictions, deep traditional family and feminine values I'm an easy and fun target. It was my hope in making the entry on this topic someone might try to understand. Susan

Hello Maryanne - I make this post in hopes you may look once or twice more. If I may make a suggestion. Stay away from all of this for a while, go be and enjoy yourself, look back in on random occasions to meet with those you have befriended and trust. Absolutely no one has had more experience with the "nasty" when it comes to treatment of women on these forums than myself over four years. I've just taken a different view of it. We (women) are out-numbered here probably twenty to one. Communication, because of differences in male / female mind sets becomes almost impossible without someone being slandered un-intentionally. (Too often it is intentional) Opinions are one thing, everything else falls into a different catagory but for some reason it isn't separated from "opinions" on the forums. Probably 90% of the people who post on these forums disagree with me and I with them. I'm a female, a traditional woman, so in this environment I lose before I get started. On the other hand, I will be the first to admit there are a lot of terrific people here and a lot of them really do care. I don't know if that is of any value or not in making your decission but it is coming from a female/woman's perspective. I invite you to the "Total Image" chat room. We don't meet very often but we have a good time when we do. The best of luck to you in all of your future endeavors. Susan

Name: Susan Age: 53 (soon to be) Gender: Female Values: Family oriented & deeply traditional. Occupation: Loving wife and mother. Lost my husband to cancer and children are are grown. (youngest in last year of high school) Presently travel and do as I wish. Height: 5' (last measured 30 years ago) Weight: not much Dress size: 5 Shoe size: 5 US Typical heel height: 4 1/2" Extreme position height: 5 1/2 to 5 3/4" Minimum heel height: 4" Studied posture, balance, manner, walk, and etiquette. Feet, ankles, and legs are conditioned and trained to achieve a dedicated endeavor. (29 years ago) A life style of "love of life" spirit and "mature sensuality". Noteables: Ankles capable of extented arc. (achieved through conditioning) Steep pitch of heel bone conforms to very high heels. (natural) Don't use toes for assistance or balance. Remain relaxed even in most severe bend. In extreme heels with very short pointed toes I can stand with both feet in in a tea cup saucer. The small pedistal of the female silhouette.

Hoverfly, thank you for the explanation, it's welcome and much appreciated. As I mentioned, I believe I understood what you initially meant, it just seemed terribly simplistic. Thanks again I don't want to become a "go between" here talking at length, possibly out of turn, to someone else's comments. A couple of things aren't helping the matter. I can't reach Janise, she isn't a registered participant so can't respond, and I still have to make a couple attempts to make my post's work due to some computer glitch. After rereading her post a couple times the only thing I can see is she found the racist comments and reacted to them. Hoverfly's explanation about how we respond to things might even explain the rest and make a little sense of what she was saying. I don't know, if I learn differently from her I'll correct it. Susan