Susan (the original)

We recently had a reasonably well covered murder trial. A woman recognized by those around her as mild mannered, killed her husband. During the court preceedings the years of abuse, threats, and fear were presented. Her husbands high heel fetish was part of that which was forced on her. The shoes were introduced in court. The media played up on her inability to protect herself in light of what she had experienced. A woman caught in that scenario can't win. She looses no matter what. In the end, he's dead, there are children involved, and she's free with a devistating cloud over her. The lives of an entire family destroyed. This swings squarely in the reality of the thread, "life as it is, not as it should be", found in this section. I certainly don't have the answers, but I do recognize reality. There is a recent post on this forum, "..., it is the way she is required......". It's the concept of "required" that jumps out at us. In the general chit chat section of this forum I opened a thread titled "A woman's prerogative to say no". It turned into a war. Why! How! Much of the thread has been deleted, what's left doesn't make sense, and it's been locked, stopping any further discussion. That gives cause to a vivid reality and sends a very distinct message. Recently there have been a number of posts that have simply disappeared. One of them was a personal attack on me. All traces of it are gone. Now everyone can pretend it didn't happen. In the previous posts on this thread there are descriptions of irrational, small minded, some of the gals have a few marbles loose, and such. Then there is the "stereotyping" thing that's been introduced. Now, I'll refer you to the first paragraph of this post. If that woman had seeked help from authorities and told what was happening to her she would likely have been identified as irrational, small minded, and she had a few loose marbles. Her husband would have denied everything and in all probability nothing would have been done to protect her. History of our social system proves it. Now, before they send the lynch mob after me I'll remind everyone of the description of "open minded" and see if it works both ways. I have passed no judgement and expressed no opinions. Everything I wrote is verifiable fact. This is touted as an adult forum where free thinking people can meet and discuss issues of significance. Can we? This thread was started well over a year ago before I elected to return and I knew nothing of it. The issues are real. Until the high heeled male defends a woman's desire to say "NO" equally as loud as their desire to wear heels, nothing is going to change. I'm as serious as it gets. I'm just the messenger. Susan

In the past five weeks I've traveled in the states of Georgia, Arkansas, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Colorado, and my home state of Tennessee. I was in two of the largest airports in the country, Atlanta and Dallas/Fortworth. I enjoyed the fun of four casinos, took part in activities in three convention centers, and patronized numerous restaurants and hotels. A number of days were spent at the University of Tucson Medical Center. According to the statistics suggested in this thread, one out of every five of all the men I saw should have been wearing heels. Where were they? I didn't see any. On the other subject of heel angle. The foot and ankle moves/rotates through three fundamental axis as the heel rises. Without an understanding of progressive geometry it's of no significance. Adding to the confusion is the reality that all feet/ankles are not created equal. The other part of the reality is the manufactures have no consistency in heel height and appropriate shank ankles. Yes, it is boring. Susan

Many of my most attractive and classy shoes are not stilettos nor pointed toes. My lifestyle is rather active and wildly varied lending itself to a variety of styles and attire. I basically refuse to wear sandals, making them a non issue in my preferences. A nice wine colored T-strap pump with a sculptured very short semi-pointed toe and tapered HIGH stacked heel, for a casual Fall fun afternoon and evening party on the houseboat. A dark brown casual with a buckle strap across the round toe and a bold (not clunky) HIGH stacked heel for a day in Gatlinburg. A black pair of ankle boots with a semi-pointed toe and HIGH tapered solid heel, for riding ATV's thought the local foot hills of the mountains. A pair of black pumps with a very short pointed toe and very HIGH stiletto heels accented with an ankle strap, for an evening at a "Pops" or big band concert. I'm not a slave to fashion or trends. If I like it I'll buy it, if not, the store gets to keep it. The rediculously long pointed toe shoes in recent style are not for me. I believe with appropriate attire for a particular occasion, round toe, pointed toe, or in-between can be presented with a touch of class. Susan

I have not been an employee but I have been an employer. Addressing the topic of this thread, I would have to say, I hope not. Just as with many of the topics on this forum, the personal experiences toward this topic are going to be varied. In the environment I've always been accustomed to, my shoes are only a small part of how I present myself. This is particularly true in the business arena of which I was involved. (A short period after my husband passed away) The height of my heels wasn't relevant. They were always quite high. The "style" of my heels, attire, hair, jewelry, and most significantly my "mannerisms, were fundamental to how I was perceived. In my husband's family's company it was professionalism, not high heels, that brought the rewards. Susan

I believe I give the lurkers and particularly those individuals who have a genuine interest a little more credit. They see the events that sometimes take place here and simply elect to avoid them. Additionally, those individuals may have interests in topics that can't be found here. Personally, from this female's point of view, there is a host of good in depth topics that never appear or simply die. This is a credit to SarahLou's interest in creating new topics with new members. Then there is the reality of "joining" something on the internet and it's attachment to what we'd like to believe is our "privacy". People may simply be reluctant to join. I don't know their thoughts or concerns and neither does anyone else here. I'd say, let's give them the benefit of doubt and let them make their choices. Susan

A most definite "NO".

Dr. Shoe, I gave you the answer and a description. Take it as a bonus. It wasn't hard and I had a little bit of fun. Since you've missed all my other explanations over the past years, now you know a little something you didn't know a couple days ago. That's a win - win situation. Susan

Dr. Shoe, I have to admit, with the abundance of information I've presented on this forum, your question is a bit bewildering. On that basis, since you ask, a simple "yes" isn't going to be sufficient. Yes, my waking hours are spent in heels but not in the sense typically depicted on these forums or websites. I understand the geometry, structure, and style of heels. I understand the make-up and structure of my body, more specifically my feet, ankles, legs, hips, and back. Nearly four decades ago I studied, worked toward, and achieved a desired level of poise, manner, and a destinct ability in "HIGH" heels. Two very skilled women were instrumental with their help and instruction. A little insight --- Standing with my feet side by side in pointed toe pumps with a "very" high heel, (size 5 US) the entire sole (toe box) of both shoes including heel tips will fit in a space no larger than a tea cup saucer. When appropriate that's exactly how I stand. When in motion, walking, dancing, etc., both heel tips virtually never touch the ground at the same time. Actually, walking down sloped surfaces is likely the only time. It's not unusual that we have breakfast on the deck outside the great-room over looking the lake and distant mountains. I'm already in heels, but my focus and total attention is on nature's early morning serenity and beauty. Not the shoes I'm wearing. "Do you (I) admire other ladies who wear them"? Certainly, but not always, and probably for different reasons than a man would. This is all way off topic but since you're a moderater I suppose it's OK. Cjveritas, this thread laid for about two weeks with no activity. My better judgement said to leave it alone, but you seemed genuinely interested. Is it specifics that you are looking for? On a different note but same tune, it isn't just opinion of appearance. There's an accompanying behavior, certainly not the same in every case, widely varied to both extremes, but its presence is undeniable. Is this something you are asking for? Cjveritas, I've been down this path before and I'm not going to jump in until I know how deep the water is. Susan

Cjveritas, from a lot of past experience I must suggest to you that these are loaded questions. Having said that, I will also suggest I appreciate your curiousity. There are two problems with such a poll. 1) There is no way of knowing if those responding are actually women. 2) The bias in the poll on this site would be akin to attending an NRA convention and taking a poll on gun control. Johnieheel and Histiletto both touched on similiar issues. On the "Would you date a man in heels" thread in the girls section, I answered it honestly, just as you ask here. I didn't degrade, belittle, or resort to name calling. I did outline some of my unpleasant experiences. The guys (or someone) didn't like it so it's all been deleted. To address your basic curiousity, I simply don't want any part of a man in heels. It doesn't belong in my life or lifestyle. That's a choice I get to freely make based on my values and belief structure. As for "do's" or "don'ts", "right" or "wrong", it's not for me to say what someone else should do. As for my values and belief structure, I've expanded on those in the past and have been severely chastised for it many times. I won't do it again. Since the original post was directed toward the "girls" I'll take the liberty of responding to a couple other responses. Histiletto, I have a great deal of experience to be really objective in my opinions and I'm not alone. Beyond those experiences, I travel extensively and have seen and witnessed much that is odd or unfamiliar including guys in women's clothes. It is what it is, nothing changes. You're correct, personal perspectives will always be what they are. Johnieheel, you've occasionally suggested I try to have some fun here and simply enjoy the conversation. In that spirit, I get the "perception" that your "We have no fear" is a bit of a challenge. Is it? Susan

Hello RC The seasons are changing, the light of day is shorter, and the mountain breeze has a bit of a nip. From my window, the perfect reflection on the lake at mornings first light is my Heaven on earth. Yes, growing old is a blessing. I looked in on "Spinchat" this evening. It was quiet. Maybe I was late. FRIENDS never leave us, we just grow older. Through that we tend to cherish that which we've had. Susan

New_look, I re-read you post as you suggested. In it you said, "People assume........................", and then contined with further description. What other people are doing, or what you assume they are doing, is behavior, your's or their's! You were in fact talking about other people's behaviors. In return I'll ask that you re-read my post and you'll see that your name is not mentioned. I never questioned your opinions or your option to offer them. Additionally, the only reasonable interpretation of the opinions you mentioned in your second post were the opinons of others. In my 10/13 post when I said, The "opinions" you speak of........................., that in reference to generic "opinions" of others, not simply yours. It always seems this fulishness come about due to a complete breakdown in communication. Please read every word. Johnieheel, , I know. Every woman who defends herself and sticks to her values needs counseling or some kind of therapy. In virtually every thread on these forms when a guy wants to know what to do to make is wife accept his high heels, the answer is send her to counseling. I'm also curious. In your 10/13 post you said I "need *more* therapy.............. Why would you say such a thing? I'm not in therapy, I think I deserve an answer. The topic of this thread is perceptions, if they're affected by others. I'll try once again to get a message across. No Johnieheel, contrary to what you said, I've had an incredibly good life. I've said that so many times on these forums it has to have the record for being the most repeated statement. The ugliness in my life that you mention is not mine. It's the ugliness in the lives of many others that has touched and impacted me. We're just getting better at understanding how to use what we learn. Behavior is a heck of an influence when it comes to perceptions. Examples: 1. My life or lifestyle in the heels isn't any secret here. It's not necessary I review it. There was a forum thread (different forum) some years ago that wanted to know (since my feet and ankles are always arched) if I had an orgasm during the birth of my children and if they were born with defects. Now, I realize there are always the few who come up with this sort of garbage (behavior) and the general population wouldn't think of it. The part that really stood out though is that no one, absolutely no one chimed in or expressed any dissatisfaction about what was done to me. *The perception* The behavior was satisfactory and met with the standards of the forum membership. 2. On one of those threads asking what women think of men in heels, women such as myself were marked as having the principles of "racists". One of the most vile hate filled identities in the English language. Now, race is a birth right. To me it's the love of my Creator. Something I respect and deeply cherish. It's not a choice or a behavior. My opinion of men and their high heels is a matter of disagreement with their "choice" and "behavior". The introduction of the idea of racist principles in a woman's personal values contrary to those of the high heeled male can only be perceived as pure hate for her. That thread is still on this forum. No one, absolutely no one openly found anything wrong with it. *The perception* The behavior was satisfactory and met with the standards of the forum membership. (In fairness, Firefox did send me an e-mail addressing his feelings. I respect him for that.) I've got pages of those but it isn't necessary to go any further. Johnieheel, you're right, I used to get mad and try to fight back. I lost everytime. Heck, I was banned from a forum after I vigorously defended my dead husband against a terrible and false accusation. That's when I decided I had enough and it was time to get a message out. I'm getting pretty good at it and I'm quite happy. Now, so no one gets the wrong "perception", it isn't about the shoes, it is in reality all about behavior. Susan

SarahLou, I agree with you completely. Stay true to your values and thank you for not being afraid to speak your mind. Lotsofheels, your original question for this thread, "Are your perceptions affected by others", my answer is a definit YES. Experience is an incredible teacher and I've had more than I'd like when it comes to men and heels. Originally, I simply didn't care for the idea for a host of very personal reasons. Now, being a woman who isn't afraid to defend herself, her values, or other women, I've learned what to expect. So yes, my perceptions have very much been affected. Jamie001, I doubt very much George Washington was wearing 5" stiletto heels. I realize those weren't part of your description, but will you refer me to the location of the descriptions of what he was wearing? I'm simply curious. If you want to talk about history and men with their heels, OK. Let's talk about past centuries when the fine men in their heels be-headed any woman who defied them. I mean no offense, I'm simply pointing out the double standard. Johnieheel, there is always an "other side". SarahLou has a side, Lotsofheels has a side, Jamie001 has a side, you have a side, I have a side, and so on. So who's side is more valueable? You tell me. Perceptions, yes, they go a long way. Susan

Hello Jim It's a pleasure to hear from you and I thank you. In the realm of reality we're all 9 or 10 years older then we were back in the days of Jennys chat room on saturday evenings. We surely did have some fun. We should do it again. Noooo, it's not hell getting old it's a blessing. Susan

*I try not to measure my life by the number of breaths I've taken but rather by the experiences that have taken my breath away* It's through those "experiences" that I've learned to cherish the life and abundant blessings I have. Guy N Heels, somewhere on this thread someone said age is a state of mind. To a point, I have to agree. Susan

disappointment

Nooo, it's not hell getting old, it's a blessing! I've said many times on these forums that I'm a very fortunate woman. I know it, I appreciate it, and I'm eternally thankful. I've witnessed the struggles, hurt, and tragedies of too many people, old, young, man, and woman. All through the misfortunes of natural disaster, accident, health, and the despicable behavior of others. I've witnessed the wonders and beauty of my Lord's creation. I've witnessed the wonderful spirit, unselfish personal sacrifice, and giving by so many people of this land. On a wall in one of the hospitals my late husband and I often visited during his battle with cancer are inscribed the words, "For what do we live if it is not to make life a little easier for someone else". Until the day he passed away he never lost his spirit and he never quit giving. He taught me the meaning of life. Today I have another wonderful man in my life. He lost his wife to cancer. We both share the same heartaches, lifting spirit, emotions, deep values, and look forward to all the wonders we've yet to experience. We both know how truely fortunate we are to have had so much in our lives. My husband plays the piano with a talent I admire and cherish. We have a wonderful home overlooking a large beautiful lake in the foot hills of the mountains. When I finish this post he's promised to play for me. The view of the lake and mountains through the glass wall backed by his music. The music from Westside Story (Maria, Tonight, and others) or whatever we wish to share. This week I will continue to give to the few men, women, and children I can reach who can't defend or protect themselves. It is the very least I can do in return for all that I have. It's my choice and I've made it. I know the meaning of life. Nooo, it's not hell getting old, it's a blessing! Susan

Would someone like to explain what a "closed minded, doesn't know what she wants kind of girl" is? Just curious.

Toryd, you're welcome and I'm glad my explanation was of some benefit. To the knowledgeable individual the separation between fantasy and reality is easily seen. If you think about it, women such as myself (there's no way of knowing how many of us there are) with a lifestyle in heels, the reality simply remains with us. If you or anyone else were to see me, you simply have no way of knowing, so in the big scheme of things it all becomes rather irrelivant. Thanks again Susan

That's unfortunate Danielinheels, but I understand unexpected things do happen. As you say, maybe next year. Thank you for getting back to us. I'll make this an open invitation. Anyone who would like to plan a discussion at one of these rallies please contact me. The only way to get to the root of the problem is to get it out in the open. Thanks Susan

That's OK, we've a lot of experience in what to expect. Arrogance and authority compliment each other. I'm sorry for the tardiness in getting back but putting this together has been a bit hectic. As we understand it there is only a brief program planned at the end of the walk which is scheduled to start at 11:00 am. If we can make the necessary arrangements can we call on you? Simply a hand full of women who went through hell that no human being should suffer. They refused to comply, be taught or trained. They held to their beliefs and values and paid for it dearly. Presently I'm expecting to be in St. Louis. Making both events is becoming a logistical nightmare and expensive for the rest of the girls. We have no desire to rain on anyones parade. At the same time this is where we can speak, without censors, where reality bubbles to the surface. I was identified on a forum as a lose cannon that had to be stopped. I still have it. Enough is enough. We'll see! Susan

It's taken a couple weeks to reach a few women and event organizers in an effort to put together a bit of a program. Air and ground travel for these women remains a problem but we're still working on it. If you would go to the "Walk a mile in her shoes" web site and then click on "Calendar" then click on "04/14/07 St. Louis then click on "ALIVE" (Alternatives to Living in Violent Evironments) This is one of the rally organizers which is why I went through the sequence. then click on "STATISTICS" One of the women trying to make arrangements to attend, six years ago caught her boyfriend in the kind of behavior outlined in the "secret stuff" thread. Some of the long time readers may remember her. His behavior didn't stop with the intrusion of her home and invasion of her privacy. When she told him to get out, it turned real nasty real quick. On other threads in other sections there is on going discussion, even disbutes, about what are and aren't permanently high heeled feet. In reality it's irrelevant! What is relevant and permanent is the beating this woman took and the disfigured eye it left her with. I'll refer you again to the "statistics". Danielinheels, (and anyone else) I don't doubt for a moment your sincerity in your descriptions pertaining to your female friends. In your response to me you used the word "trust" with a tone of authority. Two good topics for poignant discussion, male authority and trust. Organizing and participation in these kinds of events is to be applauded. In several recent conversations I've stressed the point that everything surrounding domestice violence, abuse, sexual assault, rape, etc., is always reactive. Until people have the back bone to recognize and admit the origins, nothing is ever going to change. I get in trouble all the time for defending women. I didn't start this thread. Susan

This is a four year old thread that's taken a bit of re-newed interest. I hadn't contributed originally but my name popped up in the old text. Pata made some good points in her recent post. The last paragraph of her post touched on realities I've tried for ten years to stress on these forums. The fantasy, fetish, permanent, 24/7, sub - dom, pain, discomfort, etc., etc., will continue to be topics of conversation for as long as there's someplace to print it. Toryd said "Let's get real here and stop fantasizing......", refering to permanent high heels and normal biological function. Toryd, I agree, but there's always more than what appears on the surface. There's no doubt I can represent a segment of women who make their own choices based on their own personal preferences of life style. "NO", I (we) do NOT have a fetish. That's point #1. With that, I'm a old woman with 3 1/2 decades of uninterrupted experience in heels. I am the only "authority" on me. That's point #2. I don't have "wishful thinking", it's reality. That's point #3. (I have this problem with "authority" ) Please don't misunderstand me Toryd. Fundamentally I agree with your thought process and to a reasonable extent I believe you're correct. There is though an entire group of women you (and most all high heel authorities) leave out. I'm not going to repeat what I've explained in detail on other threads in this section of the forum. This topic is about "permanent" in scheme of high heels so we'll stay with that. I personally do not believe there is anyone anywhere (including me) who is an authority on this subject. (medical profession exempt) As I've said, I'm only an authority on me. So that's what I'll address from a "get real" point of view. For me, the condition of my feet and ankles after 35 years is not simply because they've been in the high heel position, it's because of the manner in which I use them. I walk, I don't march. This is where another reality surfaces that you won't find. My intent, or aim as pata put it, was NOT an effort to deliberately become permanently high heeled. My effort was to become very well skilled in posture and manner in very high heels. That required deliberate and conditioned use of muscles most people probably don't even realize. Now, in the theme of "permanent" it becomes a matter of "fact" vs "reality". In this case they're not the same. The "fact", is as you pointed out, nothing is permanent. I'll give you that one. With enough effort and time, most anything can be forced to change. Now, the "reality" in this discussion is, WITH how much suffering and probability of cripling results??? In my situation the mannerisms I've spoke of are in conflict with change. Then there is the additional "reality" of the altered tendons, muscles, and joints. Toryd, in another thread you mentioned that the idea of a permanently high heeled woman was a real turn on. OK, I can understand that in the realm of a fetish. But I find it a bit disturbing, because none of this is a fetish to me. It's simply me. I always wear nice clothes, my hair is styled, and I wear appropriate jewelry. It makes no difference if I'm shopping at the mall or riding quad runners (ATV's) through the local mountains. If you were to see me you would have no way of knowing what you saw is the full time norm for me. I started on these forums ten years ago and I wish with all my heart I never had, but it's too late. I'm not alone in my life style. I've met through casual encounters and conversations 4 other woman very much like me. There simply is no way to know how many of us there are. I thank you for your thougts. Much has been written about this permanent thing, most of it fantasy as you pointed out. I simply wish it wasn't seen with tunnel vision.

Thank you for posting the note on the board. We'll have representatives at each rally. We only ask that you remember the "significance" and "purpose" of these events. Susan

Ozzard, I appreciate your thoughts and the answer to your question is "yes". If you will read my posts (this thread) of Dec. 17, Dec. 20, Jan. 5, and Jan 15 in their entirety you will see that I've already addressed your concern. I'll look forward to your thoughts after you read those posts. JNR, I wish I had the ability of expression with words as well, with clarity, and brevity as you do. I thank you for understanding. My response to Ozzard is I think consistant with the last sentence of your post. Hoverfly, you say we have noting to fear. I know 114 women who will glady prove you wrong. The more we talk, the more we search, the more we learn, the more women find the courage to come forward. Susan

dr1819, I won't begin to trivialize the heart ache and trauma you've experienced. Your values and beliefs are deeply set, sincere, and are to be honored. I hold you in high regard for that. I make no excuses for my defense of women. I've spent enough time in court rooms supporting abused women to last a couple lifetimes. I also fully realize that misguided, poor, cruel, or other wise unacceptable behavior is not gender specfic. I have as much compassion for a victimized man as I do a woman. Your post covers a number of thoughts including "..voluminous layers of deception which often surround most marital problems!" Looking at your recent post and the posts mentioned in the previous paragraph, I'm curious, why the double standard? This isn't the first time I've approached this and no one will get near it. We all managed to walk this thread away from the original topic. That's certainly OK with me. I said at the beginning it could wander anywhere we wanted and I meant it. Susan