dr1819

I apologize in advance for the shouting, but it's necessary for emphasis due to the extreme nature of the circumstances.

DO NOT go down to Southern Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, or any other area which is currently without power or the need to support life.

They DO NOT have ANY resources to support/sustain your life (shelter, water, food, sanitation, etc.), and WILL turn you away without question. The entire area is under martial law. Disease and toxic waste are rampant. If you're caught there and you're not a resident, you WILL be arrested without question.

EVERYONE has been ordered out of the area, save for the National Guard and a very few officially-sanctioned agencies who're well-trained to work in these situations.

For more information on how you can help, PLEASE follow the instructions on the following official websites:

http://www.fema.gov/press/2005/katrinadonations.shtm

It's like everything else - what appears as traditional to most people, "feels" normal. When people encounter something that's on the edges, they no longer feel comfortable. It's the same when people see a guy in heels. If he's wearing 4" chunk heel leather boots with a rounded toe under jeans, they really don't give it a second look. But if he's wearing a 4" metallic spike heel spaghetti-strap sandal under jeans, they do give it a second look.

I'd buy a pair if they came in my size and in black leather!

If a man is wearing womens' clothing or footwear, this is perceived as gender treachery, switching teams, if you will. Men are expected to act and dress like men, conforming to customary standards of normality. Get out of line, and be singled out. Violate the rules, and expect censure.

One of the better pieces I've seen on this topic mention that when women wear more masculine designs, it gives them a step up. Indeed, that's one of the reasons women in the board room wear heels - to be more on eye-level with their male counterparts. However, it also mentioned that when men wear more feminine designs, it lowers them a notch.

Again, this is in the eye of the average beholder, which is society at large - not how you, your SO, or your friends view yourselves!

It appears this psycho-social phenomenon has been with us since the dawn of time. It even plays out in the animal kingdom, as noted through the behaviors of both primates and non-primates, and variations from behaviors which fall within the normal curve for either gender.

The question is - how can we capitalize on this knowledge with our own street-heeling?

Simple.

Ensure that our visual presence, which includes our heels, clothing, and mannerisms, reflect typically masculine qualities - confidence and being in control.

There's the obvious problem with this, however, for those who're uncomfortable being this way, who prefer to be more feminine in either/both appearance or mannerisms, and to those, I simply say that I understand and wish you the best in your own pursuits! No harm, no foul.

By the way - good dodge on the Constitutionally-protected religious preference! It doesn't always work, though, if it can be proved that such an action on contrary to the good of the public at large...

Congratulations on your find! One word... Just because she's willing to see what's in your closet, be careful of what might be her own. Take things slowly, and try not to allow her acceptance of your heeling to be the basis for your relationship - there are many other things which are just as important. No one is a 10 in all areas, and we're lucky to have found someone who's averages a 6 over all areas, so keep things in perspective. Again, sounds like a very nice woman.

I think that Silhouette deserves a round of applause as well for their financial support. APPLAUSE.

Also, I think forum members should periodically click on Silhouette's link on the home page and check out the products they carry. You might find something interesting. They've added over 100 items since April.

Silhouette's link can be found at the top of http://hhplace.org/. Go there and click on their name.

Applause!

However, for a site devoted to heeling, on which the vast majority of wearers are men, I was disappointed to find that Silhouette's sizes, for the most part, stopped at 41, with only a very few items to a 43.

There's a dichotomy. Either it's a mainstream shoe outlet which caters to women's sizes (and they ignore the needs of larger-footed women), or it's a fetish shop with plastic "leathers" and heel heights beginning at 5 inches (rarely at 4 inches).

WHEN are the shoe outlets going to realize there are a LOT of people, mostly women, but quite a few men, who are looking for size 12 and 13 US Women's heels in NORMAL styles?

I've seen a few fashion articles online recently that point to the fact that for size 8s, manufacturers make approximately 30% more than they think they'll sell, for no other reason than to achieve full market exposure (women won't buy the shoe if you're out of them).

At the same time, however, they make just 10% more for size 9s, are at 0% more for size 10s, and make 30% less for size 11s.

For size 12s, the number is just half of what they think would sell!

For size 13s, it goes up to about 4 times less.

These are for mainstream, not fetish shoes.

WHY???

The actual numbers that would sell in these upper ranges are very minimal compared to how many additional shoes they make in size 8. For example, if they cut the 30% overage for the 6.5 tyo 8.5 range to just 25%, they would have enough excess material and labor to manufacturer 100% of all shoes that would be expected to sell in the 11, 12, and 13 range.

And they would be covering 85% of all men's heel sizes, too!

And to be honest the sooner this site gets it's own pic server the better. would make keeping track of pics alot easier.

later

nhoj62

PHPBB isn't conducive to having it's own pic server. It was meant for chat, not photos.

After trying several, I've settled on PhotoBucket (http://www.photobucket.com) as it's very easy to register, setup, and use, and even has a place where I can simply copy the URL as it's used here on this board (complete with the img tags) without having to manually do all that.

Slick!

And free!

You know what I'd love? I'd love it if ANY manufacturer decided to offer a lace-up court shoe in a 3-1/2 to 4 inch heel with a rounded, instead of a pointed toe, and in real leather, which conforms to your foot, instead of patent leather pointed toes, which simply lead to serious foot problems. The vast majority of larger-sized high-heeled shoes are fetish shoes, which have little to no basis in reality with respect to those of us who which to wear heels as a matter of course!

The point about men wearing heels is it's a very very minority interest and I personally don't think its fair to distort a world online reference with whole category on such a topic.

I'm not, Firefox. The high heel stuff will be left largely to the women, who represent the vast majority of heel-wearers today.

I will, however, create a section devoted to the fact that heel wear has not, throughout the majority of history, been exclusive to women, but rather, party to both sexes.

I cannot help if history offends. If it offends the sensibilities of us men who wear heels, who yet portend to respect the idea that only women wear heels, then I must question the sanity of anyone so inclined! History is replete with examples of men wearing heels, often many years before it became fashionable with the women. Our current situation with respect to men not being "allowed" to wear heels while the women wear whatever they wish of men's fashion, with impunity, is a but a very small slice of societal norms, and will not go unchallenged by either an increase in men's fashion variations, or by a closure upon the variation of women's fashion at large.

I've already seen larger-sized, higher-heeled cowboy boots on the online market. Try Zappos, shoebuy, shoemall, shoeexpress, or some of the others.

Hmmh dr1819, I'm also a fan of pointy boots. Because I like the style together with long flare hip jeans. But there is still another reason. My foot size is EU 44/45. My feet are long and rather slim. Boots with a very long pointed toe-box are more comfortable for me than boots with a rounded or even a rectangular toe box (Eeeh :x I never liked this ugly fashion of the 90s). Some pointy boots are even matching for me in size EU 42/43.

Micha - I have the utmost respect for your choice of style or fit. My comments with respect to fit and fashion pertain only to my own humble opinion/needs. I would never expect others to feel like they have to agree with me.

My own feet are quite narrow. Shoes that fit my instep are too short, and shoes that fit my length are usually too roomy, unless it's a lace-up, which is why I like my lace-up wingtip granny boots so much. Mid-height heel, roomy toe box, and conforming leather - the utmost in comfort in a stylish, sufficiently stealthed heeled shoe!

Someone else to blame, of course, is Sir Isaac Newton and the laws of physics... ...1st law of motion = 'for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction'. the forces of your body weight have got to be stopped somewhere. As a result I tend to like the feel of a firm close fitting vamp of a pair of boots rather than jamming of toes into a court shoe. Another way of reducing those forces is to lose a bit of weight too!! I'm sure a 55kg woman gets less pain than someone heavier.

For kicks and grins, I dusted off my physics book (well, mentally, anyway) and calculated the loading (psi) differential between a typical female and male foot given average weights.

Sources:

Average shoe sizes:

http://www.genderweb.org/general/ave_bo.phtml

http://www.wonderquest.com/dinosaur-shoe-sidesaddle.htm#shoe

Shoe size/length conversion:

Payless Size Charts

Average weight:

Male-Female Average Weights

Here are the results:

Women Men

Average Size (US) 8 10.5

Length (in) 9.6875 10.8125

Width (in) 3.5625 4.0625

Proportional Area 34.51171875 43.92578125

Weight (lbs) 144 177

Ratio (ratio/area) 4.172 4.030

1/3 Heel (in) 3.20 3.57

Notes:

1. The proportional area is not a true measure of the contact area of the foot with the shoe. However, it's an accurate reflection of the relative difference between the contact area of women and men's feet. By itself, for each sex, it's useless, but we can compute a male/female ratio using it or anything derived from it (such as the ratio) and obtain a true measure of the difference between men and women's foot loadings.

2. We can accurately conclude that, on average, the loading experienced by women is 3.5% higher than that experienced by men, regardless of whether they're wearing flats or heels. This holds true, however, only for proportional heels.

It's long been noted by statistics garnered from the medical community that long-term wear of any heel higher than 1/3 the length of the foot tends to result in sharply increased problems for the wearer. More on this in another post...

The point is that the ratio of stresses on the ball of the foot compared to the heel is the same for a 3.2" heel on a size 8 (US Women) as it is for a 3.57" heel on a size 10.5 (US Men). You can compute your own foot loading using the links provided above, your size, your weight, etc.

Tuckedintoboots - NO CAR

How do you survive? Does OCTA go into Laguna Niguel? The nearest bus route from here is about a mile, and then only one. Another mile to the main street. I like to take the train (Amtrak Pacific Surfliner) to LA, San Diego, or San Juan, but it is about 5 miles to the station, and no bus goes there.

I am in the Orange area, 3-4 miles from the dance studio - too far to walk in a reasonable time.

The bus drops off at Union Station and Norwalk

http://www.mta.net/riding_metro/riders_guide/planning_trip-01.htm

http://www.mta.net/riding_metro/riders_guide/planning_trip-02.htm

I recommend downloading them as PDFs and using them on your computer.

As for getting to the bus stop, simply throw your pair into a bookbag and hoof it using your favorite walking shoes! That's what I do when I'm touring other cities. Once I'm in the general vicinity of where I'll be for a while, I'll head to the restroom where I can slide into my heeled boots before touring a museum, hitting a restuarant, or just sitting at a cafe' people-watching with friends.

TB2 - I also liked the first pair - lots of room for one's toes. I hate scrunched toes!

As for lunchtime shopping...

I got real bold, today...

I was lounging around in my black denim skirt (ankle-length) and heeled wing-tip granny boots when I decided to go to a cafe' for lunch. I was wearing my dark, charcoal pseudo-silk shirt, and was out my door and half-way to my care before I realized I hadn't changed to pants, which is what I normally wear (and I rarely wear heels out in the daytime).

I've been moving more towards a "whatever" attitude about most things these days, not disrespectful, just not really caring about what others think.

So, after stopping and debating whether to go back and change for about three seconds, I said, "whatever," and drove off in my car.

I thought about going to a different village than normal, but remembered that the larger the city/village and the more people, the more likely people will ignore you for being different.

So, I parked, and walked the block and a half to a favorite cafe', right next to a large, old church.

I arrived just before noon, and was treated to many things, including the sight of women walking by in skirts of all styles and lengths. Most were wearing heels. Then, the bells tolled. Since they're real, they're also real loud, booming, almost deafening.

Wonderful!

The hostess came during the tolling, which lasts for about 10 minutes around here, sort of a mini-celebration at noon and usually again in the evening, around five. My hostess asked me if I'd like a menu, before noticing my skirt and heels. Her eyes grew a little wider, then she half asked, half stated, "you're in heels..?"

"Yes," I replied, before ordering a glass of wine.

"And a skirt..?" she said, leaning back into an upright stance, with an obvious display of disapproval on her face.

"Yes - why do you ask?"

"That's unusual. It's not normal."

"Hmmm..." I hummed loudly, trying to overcome the dinning of the bells.

Then, she apologized, saying, "I didn't mean that there's anything wrong with it. But it's the first time I've seen it."

I grinned, and said, "there's a first time for everything." Her grin back wasn't very reassuring.

When she returned with my glass of wine, she asked me why I was wearing them. I explained why I enjoyed wearing skirts and heels, and she said she could understand that, but wanted to know why I, as a man, wore women's clothing.

I replied that skirts are still commonly worn by men throughout the world, and that heels were worn by men for many years before they became a woman's fashion trend, and that men's heels saw a resurgence in the mid-70s. We discussed it for a few more minutes, and she was actually quite knowledgeable, mentioning some of the countries where the styles of dress include men wearing non-bifurcated garments like skirts, kilts, sarongs, tunics, robes, etc. She asked me about men wearing heels, however, and seemed dubious when I told her about the history of high heels, that it began with horsemen, to keep their shoes from slipping out of their stirrups, and that a cowboy's riding heel has always been higher than your average male heel as a result. I also shared with her how the French men of the court began wearing ever-higher heels for years before the women followed suite. She was aware of the 70's craze, and that's what she called it, "crazy."

As she left to attend other customers, I asked her, "well, what's your honest opinion? Does it look totally out of place, or does it look stylish?"

She thought for a minute, then said, "Both," before grinning, turning, and walking off.

When she delivered my check, after lunch, she added, "I've seen lots of things around here, and compared to some, that's not so bad."

I attributed the flavor of her comment to her personality and the language barrier, but I took it to mean that a man wearing a skirt and heels is by no means the weirdest thing around.

And that's good news for us all!

I have a skirt question. What is the conversion from a women's size to a men's waist, for example: a 36" mens size is a women's size ??

I've seen manufacturers' size charts vary considerably. For example, one manufacturer's 16 might specify a 34" waist, while another might list it as a 32" waist.

For example, for a 34" waist, here are the following sizes for three outlets:

Roamans: 18W/L

JC Penneys Tall: 18/XL

JC Penneys Plus: 16W/1X

LL Bean: Between a 16 and an 18 / between a L and an XL

For women, selecting a skirt size is fairly easy, as they simply measure their waists, then select that exact size or round up, knowing that the skirt will rest comfortably on their hips. For men, the difference between our waists and our hips aren't as great, so we have an increased need for precision.

Here's the method I use:

I measure around the smallest area of my waist, which for me is an inch above my belly button.

I next measure around the place where the belt on my jeans normally rests, about 2-1/2" below my belly button. It's about 1.5" larger than my waist.

Whenever I buy a skirt online, I make sure the size is not less than my natural waistline, but not more than where my pants come to rest.

If at all possible, I buy belted skirts (minimum 5 loops) as that allows me to position them as needed.

As some of you may know, Wikipedia is a free online encyclopedia. I'll be writing an entry on men who wear heels, and wanted your input as to a single or hypenated word to use as it's title. Please vote, and if you have a different suggestion, please vote "other" and post your suggestion. I will be providing a link to this website in the article, as well as to a few other alternative clothing rights websites. Thank you for your participation!

I still can't believe how many guys like wearing pointed-toe, high-heeled boots. To me, they're the death-knell of enjoyment. It's not a matter of advertisement. I wear heeled boots, sometimes block, sometimes tapered, sometimes spiked. But if my toes are being pinched, I shuck the boots! And I've yet to find a pair of pointed-toe boots, even those several sizes larger than mine, where my toes aren't pinched by the forward-sliding action of my foot in the boot. In fact, the only boots where my toes aren't pinched are those with both roomy toe space and either zippered entry, lace-up uppers, or both. The "slide-in" boots are too loose in the instep, which almost invariably results in my foot sliding forward until my toes take the brunt of the stress. My most comfortable heel by far, and the one I've taken to wearing around the house almost exclusively, are my all-leather Clarks clogs, sporting a measured 3-1/4" heel (with no more than a 1/4" platform). Those would be followed closely by my all-leather wingtip granny boots, with a 3-1/4" heel and tapered heels.

Great picture, micha! Yeah, it is cool to match a face with the name as it does bring us all a little closer. I'm glad I posted that pic of myself so everyone can see just who I am!

Yeah, me too! No need to include the rectangular face of death...!

:drinking:

Not in this lifetime if what Bubba said about such shoes are true! Even I have limits, and those things exceeds them by a light year!

JeffB, I do believe you hit the nail on the head. All of us should know our long-term limits, what we're willing to live with, without permanent damage, and it's good of you to stay within those limits. Nothing wrong with conservatism when it comes to one's long-term health, particularly with one's ability to walk!

Payless seem to have a few nice pairs in size 12 and at good prices too.....but those orange jobs leave me stone motherless cold.

jim

I dunno. I think they would look rather stunning on a snow bunny in a James Bond flick.

But that's about as far as my interest would take me...

It's like anything worn by either sex. If it's apparently a natural part of who they are, worn with ease, it's attractive. If it's something they struggle with, or appears discontinuous with the rest of who they are or the way they're dressed, then it's distracting. I've seen guys wearing some prety hefty ear-wear, and it appears normal on them, even though the ear-wear itself isn't normal. I've also seen a guy wearing a single small diamond stud who was so self-conscious that it looked totally out of place on him.

Europe is indeed more tolerant than the US when it comes to certain things. Take, for example, the wearing of skirts by men. In Germany, it's referred to as "männerock," and one of the most prominant companies, MenInTime sells skirts to men around the world. My only beef is that they're ridiculously expensive! Therefore, I prefer wearing non-feminine skirts from other sources, such as LL Bean, Target, eBay, etc.

However, more tolerant doesn't necessarily mean less conspicuously interested. The people are curious, and no one has a problem walking up to you at a bar and asking, "Hallo, why are you wearing a skirt?" By and large, people here in Germany tend to be far more active at policing one another than people in the U.S. Dress differently? No problem. Jaywalking? You're likely to receive a comment addressing your anti-societal behavior!

I suspect Amsterdam is similar, with the caveat that Amerstam is indeed far more liberal than most of the rest of Europe.

Careul how you go. The police may arrest you for wearing womens shoes in a public place or behaviour likley to cause a breach of the peace.

Has that happened to you, recently, Firefox? I've encountered several policemen while wearing heels, and while they give it a double-take, they haven't bothered me.

Still in, eh? Well, that's cool! I imagine the Navy's plenty different from when I stepped on my first ship wa-a-a-a-a-a-a-ay back in December of 1976! I mean, for starters, you've got women on combatants for Pete's sake! That was unheard of when I was sailing the seas! And you've worn your heels onboard ship! Most impressive! More power to you!

About the only area where women are still not allowed to serve is front-line combat, such as the infantry forces in Iraq.

Amazingly enough, however, these restrictions don't apply to the contracted security personnel who're tasked to escort VIPs around theater. Although the percentage is small, a few of them are women.

Back to dr1819's message on the conversation with the woman, posted on Aug. 17th, would this woman call the Pope a transvestite? That's quite a white dress he is wearing in the current news pictures. And the cardinals are in robes, too.

For a real eye-opener, see Kiltmen's MUGs Around the World.

It's amazing how narrow-minded most Westerners are with respect to styles of clothing worn by men around the world. I once wore a long, dark skirt to a nightclub, and received a few furtive glances, nothing more. But when I wore it to the mall, there were quite a few whispers, people trying to hide their pointing, etc. Heels actually attract less attention, provided they're subdued, such as my black wingtip granny boots with tapered heels under long black pants.

Thank you, Jim. If it weren't for the near-daily phone calls with my son, I'm not sure what I'd do.