Continued Discussion (from For the Gals)

[genebujold]

Arno wrote:

It is important to know here that high heels that are comfortable to wear must fit well from the beginning. Susan, known from the other forum, was very firm about that and she wore nothing but the highest heels, 24/7. And the critical factor for this is width. Now it so happens that not everyone’s foot has the same width but high heels are made in only one width, called “Medium.” It was previously called “B” because there were then also other widths like A, C, and D that have passed into history.

Not at all. Check Nordstroms or many other larger fashion stores, where you will find a very large range of widths for high heels ranging from 4A to 3E.

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So Daz, you have to give up your superior attitude...

Don't pick on Daz. I've never found him to come across with a "superior attitude," merely an informed opinion.

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My second point is about comparing heel heights...

Compare this: Measure along the back from the floor to the top of the heel and divide by the length of your foot while standing flat-footed. That's your inclination ratio, and mine, for my foot (size 11 US woman's) most comfortable heel height (3.5 inches) is .327. A size 6 US woman wearing the same height would sport a ratio of .389. It's only a difference of 19%.

Go here for more information: http://www.payless.com/en-US/Consumer/CustomerSupport/Finding_Size.htm#womens

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And one more thing. It is not true that wearing heels causes knee damage as one of you claims. This misinformation keeps popping up despite studies showing that it is false.

Wearing heels is the same as any other activitity for which our bodies have not yet evolved. Doesn't matter whether it's hauling boxes, repetitive typing, or wearing heels. Some of us have no problems, while others of us do.

I'm personally sporting a nice case of tendonitis because of my heel-wearing. The doctor says it'll take about three weeks of wearing flats for it to subside. I personally know others who've learned the hard way that high-heel wear can cause problems with toes, feet, ankles, knees, hips, and back.

So please don't put out misinformation about "false studies," as that's misleading when volumes of information have been written about the effects of heel wear.

If wearing heels works for you, terrific! But don't make others who have problems wearing sky-high, ankle-bending heels feel like shmucks.

We're quite normal.

[genebujold]

Ok, Arno - let's take this step by step.

genebujold - You claim...

I don't "claim." I share. Sometimes opinion, but often information from valid sources.

...an abundance of high heels available in wide sizes from Nordstrom’s and other leading stores. I checked Nordstrom’s Web site and found it not to be true.

Please check harder. And please allow me to walk you through it step by step to help you:

1. Go here: Nordstroms

2. Click on Advanced Search.

3. On Category, click Women: Shoes

4. On Size, choose your size.

5. On Width, choose your width.

If you have feet that are in the middle of the pack, you can find a variety of widths. I wear 11 2A or AA or N or Narrow, and my search returned 327 items, which are significantly more than something that's "not true."

These exceptions just prove the rule that high heels are made only in one width - at least over 95% of the time.

Considering the vastly greater number of styles available at Nordstroms (more than 2,000 for a size and at Zappos (14,940 for a size 8, and 1,596 for an 8 N), I hardly think Frederick's 36 pair or Sak's similarly limited collections comprise "95%" of the market.

In fact, do the math and you'll find varied width shoes are the norm, not the exception.

You also expressed your opinion about damage from wearing high heels so I might as well put things in perspective. First of all, foot problems that are attributed to wearing high heels are the same problems that plague runners and are well known to sports medicine specialists.

You are correct! It's called "repetitive stress injury," or "RSI," and we get it when we repeat an action (like high-heel wearing or mouse-moving) our bodies were designed to handle. Some people do fine, some people get by, some do not. And you're also correct in that tendonitis can be induced (but not always) by an RSI, particularly when the tendon is under more stress than normal, as it is while wearing heels.

But to include knees, hips and back as being impacted by high heel wear is simply silly.

Thanks for your own opinion, but I trust a medical doctor's opinion more, particular that of a well-educated and high respected specialist who took the time to do solid research clearly adhering to the scientific method: http://www.obgyn.net/women/women.asp?page=/women/SWHR-highheels

And lest we be hasty, let's get some second opinions:

http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/31/1728_76613

Same study, but with another medical doctor's endorsement: http://www.canoe.ca/Health0108/13_jones-sun.html

And here's an article that's right out of my backyard (I live in Vegas): http://www.2heels.com/news3.html

Finally, another of my "silly" links: http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/dc/caz/bone/foot/alert10022001.html

For a more current medical assessment of high heels, go to:

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20030929-103356-6719r.htm

I did, and read it thoroughly.

First, as a statistician, I find reports of any "study" without reference to methodologies or statistics a glaring red flag (and percentages posted at the end aren't "statistics," they're merely ratios).

Second, as you must surely have noticed when you read the article yourself, while it begins with a reference to the doctor's study, it also reports the following:

Many women understand with ferocity: 37 percent insist on wearing high heels regardless of comfort, according to the American Podiatric Medical Association.

In the meantime, some still regard high heels with suspicion.

Two Harvard Medical School studies in the past five years — which went so far as to measure the "knee torque" of high-heel wearers — linked knee arthritis and high heels.

A Medical College of Georgia investigator found that older women lost their balance 12 percent of the time when they wore high heels.

The Yale University School of Medicine Foot and Ankle Service recommends half-inch heels, while the podiatric association calls high heels "biomechanically and orthopedically unsound."

Pish-tosh, say the Britons.

Trumped again - I forgot the old "pish-tosh" logical construct and it's death-defying defeat of all other possibilities.

By the way, here's the blatently glaring flaw in the "study," as revealed by the doctor himself: "Researchers noted: "Most of the women had been exposed to high-heeled shoes over the years. Nevertheless, a consistent finding was a reduced risk of osteoarthritis of the knee."

Don't fret about shoes — worry about weight, they counseled. Obesity at any age is "the single most preventable risk factor..."

Question - who wears high heels? Seen any really overweight women wearing high heels lately? No? Neither have I. In fact, the only ones I see wearing very high heels (4 inches or more) are the fairly slender. This "study" is blatently skewed towards the more svelte crowd who have a significantly greater propensity towards wearing high heels - as well as a significantly lesser propensity towards osteoarthritis of the knees, the two of which, in combination, double-bias the study's results and render them essentially meaningless.

This is basic statistics, folks, and it's called a "stratified random sample." Provided you're aware of precisely how the sample has been stratified, you can account for its inherent skewing. Unfortunately, this is something the good doctor failed to do.

This should straighten you out about those “false studies” you talk about.

I can't argue with logic like that, Arno.

Let me make it absolutely clear that I never opined anything about what a person wears: it is their business and theirs alone.

Good on 'ya! And as it should be.

Furthermore, it was not my intent to make anyone feel like a schmuck.

Why, thank you!

However, if you find that the shoe fits, don’t hesitate to put it on.

And how, precisely, could this comment, in conjunction with the one immediately preceeding it, be construed as anything other than derisive?

I've been polite, showing you the resources to find heels in varied widths, shared several well-done scientific studies that actually measured torsion and point pressures within the knee for subjects while wearing heels and flats (as opposed to the other doctor's simple correllation study, which in no way implies causation and is nevertheless fundamentally flawed with it's sampling techniques), and I even shared with you the benefit of my years as a registered statistician.

Instead of intelligent conversation, you demean and bemoan, as you've been doing to others on this board since your return from January.

Why must you treat others in such a manner?

[Dr. Shoe]

Firstly, I'm not saying that the research is wrong, however there are certain items I would like to point out:

"High-heel shoes seem to be wreaking havoc on the joints of women everywhere. Osteoarthritis is the most common type of arthritis and is seen more often in women than in men. The type of shoe one chooses to wear may be part of the reason."

In actual fact, noone knows for sure what causes osteoarthritis. A popular (and clinicall proven) theory is that the body's own anti-bodies attack the collogen in the cartiledge. This is particularly of interest in childhood arthritis where collogen replacement therapy has had unbelievable results.

"

Men are more likely than women to suffer from osteoarthritis in most joints before the age of 45. After that age, the numbers dramatically shift and women are much more likely to suffer from the disease, especially in the hands, feet and knees.

It’s not just the shoes. Men and women have biological differences that contribute to their unequal risk of osteoarthritis. On average, men have a larger volume of knee cartilage than women. Because osteoarthritis results when the cartilage gets worn away, men are more protected than women when it comes to the knee. In addition, the carpometacarpal joint that connects the thumb to the wrist in women tends to have more curvature. This makes the joint much more vulnerable to osteoarthritis in women than men."

So what is it? Is it the heels that women wear or the biological differences? We now have an answer to why men tend not to suffer these problems and why women could do.

"Women disproportionately experience osteoarthritis around or after menopause, which may suggest that hormones may play a role. There is some evidence that elevated levels of estrogen are contained in the cartilage of osteoarthritic patients. Further studies are needed to figure out the exact role hormones play in the etiology of the disease."

Perhaps this is the reason why women tend to suffer more after the age of 45.

"Both types of heels increased pressure on knee joints while walking, Kerrigan and colleagues report. The wide-heeled shoes increased knee-joint pressure by 26%, while the stilettos upped pressure by 22%. Increased pressure in the knee joint is thought to play a role in the development of osteoarthritis."

There you go, hypothesis again. As I said, noone knows for sure what causes arthritis.

"But other experts aren't so quick to kick out the heels.

"My feeling is that this doesn't get to be a major problem because most people are not wearing that high of a heel for a long period of time," osteoarthritis expert Roland Moskowitz, MD, tells WebMD.

Moskowitz says he has never been asked about heel height or width and osteoarthritis, and he feels there are other parameters besides knee pressures that affect osteoarthritis risk."

No even the experts agree (so why should we ?).

Now let's look at the other ailments:

Bunions. This is actually a hereditary condition and I had mine long before I started to wear heels, Heel wearing does not neccessarily aggravate the condition, pinching toes in a pointed toe-box is the main culprit. As most of the high heels in the past have included pointy toes this is where the connection was made. Can also be caused by wearing tight socks!

Hammer toes: Again this is down to a pointed toe-box and (occassionally) tight socks.

Ingrown toenails: Ditto, I've been known to get them from my split-toe air rift nikes. If you can get one from wearing trainers it isn't exclusively a heel problem !

Tendonitis: This is an inflammation caused by stresses on the tendons. Also suffered by athletes though is attributed to heels in non-athletic sufferers.

Corns and callouses: Ill-fitting shoes.

I'm not trying to say that heel wearing does not contribute to these problems, it's just that heels are not the big villain everyone thinks.

[genebujold]

I'm not trying to say that heel wearing does not contribute to these problems, it's just that heels are not the big villain everyone thinks.

I think that's a fitting compromise.

And I appreciate your open-minded responses to some of the other information that was presented - thank you!

[Skirted-UK]

. Most interesting, I have been wearing 4" heel court shoes now for nearly 30 years and I am starting to suffer from osteoarthritis in my knees and hips, but nowhere else. Would I have this condition if I had not worn high heels ? I don't know. Interesting about wide heels, I recently bought a pair of 3" block heel loafers for wearing out in the country. I thought they would be a doodle to wear, but in fact they more difficult to wear than 4" heel courts. Until I wore them I did not realise how much you swivel and tilt on stilettos, which you can't do on block heels. Prolonged wearing of high heels will shorten the tendons in your legs making it difficult to wear flat shoes, I know this for a fact. 3 years ago the company I worked for went into receivership and I was made redundant. I decide to spend the winter studying for a qualification, as I had the house to myself during the day I wore a straight skirt and 4" heel court shoes all winter. As the months went by I found that the tendons at the back of my ankles felt tight when I wore flat shoes. This did not matter as I was at home most of the time in high heels, but when I started work in the spring in flat shoes, I pulled the tendons in both legs in quick secession. It was extremely painful and took weeks to heel, the only relief I could get was to wear high heels. High heel court shoes also change the shape of your legs and feet, I now have compacted toes and my wife once told me that I had "women's legs" because of my muscular calf's caused by high heel wearing. I often cringe when I read on this forum of members in their 20's who say that they can wear 5 "to 6" heels with no problem, will they be able to say that in 30 years time? All I can say in my experience is don't wear anything higher than 4" for any length of time and certainly not on rough or uneven ground or you might regret it later.

[Nicole]

.

Most interesting, I have been wearing 4" heel court shoes now for nearly 30 years and I am starting to suffer from osteoarthritis in my knees and hips, but nowhere else. Would I have this condition if I had not worn high heels ? I don't know.

Interesting about wide heels, I recently bought a pair of 3" block heel loafers for wearing out in the country. I thought they would be a doodle to wear, but in fact they more difficult to wear than 4" heel courts. Until I wore them I did not realise how much you swivel and tilt on stilettos, which you can't do on block heels.

Prolonged wearing of high heels will shorten the tendons in your legs making it difficult to wear flat shoes, I know this for a fact. 3 years ago the company I worked for went into receivership and I was made redundant. I decide to spend the winter studying for a qualification, as I had the house to myself during the day I wore a straight skirt and 4" heel court shoes all winter. As the months went by I found that the tendons at the back of my ankles felt tight when I wore flat shoes. This did not matter as I was at home most of the time in high heels, but when I started work in the spring in flat shoes, I pulled the tendons in both legs in quick secession. It was extremely painful and took weeks to heel, the only relief I could get was to wear high heels.

High heel court shoes also change the shape of your legs and feet, I now have compacted toes and my wife once told me that I had "women's legs" because of my muscular calf's caused by high heel wearing.

I often cringe when I read on this forum of members in their 20's who say that they can wear 5 "to 6" heels with no problem, will they be able to say that in 30 years time?

All I can say in my experience is don't wear anything higher than 4" for any length of time and certainly not on rough or uneven ground or you might regret it later.

I am in my thirties now, but I was saying that about 5" heels in my late twenties when I first started posting on this forum. I don't know what I will be doing in my fifties or sixties, but I will say this: I'm not that worried. Here's why.

I don't wear heels for months at a time. This is due primarily to the influence of my wife, who does not approve. Even when she goes down to L.A. to help her parents around their home, I do not necessarily break out the heels (they are normally buried deep in my closet), since work may well be taking up all of my time.

When I do get the chance, rare though that is, I do not have any problems stepping into some of my 5" heels, and walking around in them for quite a bit of time. I won't say I'm a natural since it took years of intermittant practice before I could wear such high heels; more that it appears to be like riding a bike: once learned, never really forgotten (health permitting).

My 6" patent pumps always require practice, and I doubt that I'll ever be able to walk in them comfortably for more than half a kilometer.

I do know what you mean about tendon problems. Two weekends ago, for four days straight I wore heels, mostly around my home, and then when I later walked in flats for a while, I had to stretch a bit. For a few days after, I did not put wear heels very much, and my legs are back to normal.

I do not anticipate ever being in a situation where I would wear heels for much longer than that, and I do change the heel heights.

Since most of the time I wear trainers, the shape of my feet does not appear to be altered by the occasional wearing of pumps. I've always had muscular legs- calfs and thighs- even before I started wearing drag.

All in all, I think with care, I'll still be able to wear at least 5" heels when I am fifty- even sixty; but if not, then I'll just have to live with it. I've survived not playing contact sports any more; I've survived not hitchhiking. These are activities that used to be very important to me but I recognise that age and change of circumstance takes their toll.

At least I'll always be able to wear trainers.

[Skirted-UK]

You circumstances seem very similar to mine when I was your age. but as I get older I find that I am wearing heels more than I did when I was 30. I am quite happy in 4" heels, but I don't think I would go higher now in case I damaged my knees. As you get older you realise that you are not as indestructible as you thought you were in your thirties.

[Nicole]

You circumstances seem very similar to mine when I was your age. but as I get older I find that I am wearing heels more than I did when I was 30. I am quite happy in 4" heels, but I don't think I would go higher now in case I damaged my knees. As you get older you realise that you are not as indestructible as you thought you were in your thirties.

I don't know if I will follow your path- but I will bear your history in mind.