Response to the Ladies POLL

[new_look]

in response to the poll by Firefox in the womens section, i was interested to hear the results from the girls. Rather than not but in their space i will post my questioning here. It did not come as a suprise that most put high ratings for the feel of the heel, as im sure thats the main driver behind most of us here. I was quick to note that nearly everyone put 10 as the score for increasing their feminity. If us lads wear heels, does that signify that we are expressing ourselves as feminine or what because i have never thought of doing it for that reason. Although a woman in heels does look damn sexy, unlike say a skirt ordress or corset, i think that a shoe with a elevated rear signifies nothing feminine apart from memories in peoples head as to which section of the shoe shop they are in. What do we think

[Laurieheels]

Heels have a lot to do with femininity. They do a lot for a woman's posture, enhancing breasts, for one. They do other things, too, which make feminine curves look better. That's why we generally rate it as a 10 score. Because it helps certaine attributes we already have look better. Now, a man wearing heels, well, he doesn't come equipped with those attributes, so there's nothing enhanced. But that's not to say wearing heels is a feminine issue for a man. They don't feminize male attributes, only female attributes. Heels worn by women do things for legs, breasts, and the rest. How can we help but feel more feminine for wearing them?

[new_look]

sorry maybe we both misunderstood my point. i know that it enhances areas of the female body. I meant that aside from been worn by a woman, the shoe would indicate nothing feminine eg. on a man as you srightly said, apart from what people usually associate them with.Its annoying to be thought of as either gay, or trying to be a woman just for wearing a pair of heeled shoes. I mean weve all got the same legs and feet right? Please dont take my post as meaning women cant feel feminine or confidence boosted by heels. Its not what i was meaning daz

[Firefox]

Heels have a lot to do with femininity.

Sure, but there's always two sides to the coin. Heels make you taller and height is one symbol of masculinity, so while they may not feminise male attributes they may masculinise them for some people.

I think Daz's comment about "...memories in peoples head as to which section of the shoe shop they are in..." is very telling. Turn the clock back 250 years into the 1700's and men were wearing higher heels than women. It was fashion then, and the men were no less masculine than the men of today.

Of course, since heels in the current fashion environment are regarded as feminine items, many cross-dressers and the like adopt them as part of their wardrobe, and good luck to them. If you like it, do it. That's not what most of the male heel wearers are about though. We're out to make oursleves feel better as guys and develop our own fashion style as guys. I think that because we are a very small group, many people have difficulty relating to this idea without associating it with something else.

Back to the topic, I can understand the general point about why heels make women more feminine, but different things are going to apply for guys. And for those in between type people, some women's reasons and some men's reasons will both have their influence.

[Laurieheels]

Well, I will offer this thought about thing heels and stilettos. From the sole of the shoe, they emerge, and curve inwar, tapering to a point. This completes a curve started at the waist, which curves out over the bottom, then back in at the knee. It then curves out again over the calf muscle, and back in at the ankle. So it adds one more curve, over the heel of the foot, and down to the tip of the heel of the shoe. I think that for those heels alone, there is something to be said for femininity enhacement. Other heels, they look quite manly when thick, despite the height. But yes, it is society that has ascribed the idea to the shoes. As for Firefox and his men were no less manly than today comment with regards to heels in the 1700s... The characters of heel wearing Early Modern French men is often fopish and dainty, very weak, effeminate... pinching their snuff from tiny silver snuff boxes... I have to wonder where the idea of this comes from, and if it isn't a British idea to make the French look, well, weak. Now, conversly to that, good heels on a pair of riding boots would have been important, and quite manly indeed. Several inches to help keep feet in the stirrups would make sense, although I do not have any examples. I think that heels in and of themselves do not determine the shoe, but the combined elements of the shoe. Toes, style of heel, material, vamp cut, upper, ornamentation... We could probably find manly and womanly heels if we looked at everything, and then a grey area in the middle.

[Heelfan]

A most etertaining post Laurie - especially the early Frenchmen - hilarious description! Cheerfully yours, Heelfan

[Laurieheels]

I knew the Brits would enjoy that little image I created. No offense intended to any members from the fine nation of France who may be reading. my previous message. (Hey, moderators have to cover all areas)

[Firefox]

It's agreed that some of the Dandys and French courtiers were camping it up somewhat. But there were many ruffians, villains, highwaymen, horesmen, pirates etc of that era who also wore heels as part of their masculine fashion image. It's an interesting point about curves, but then again most women today wear stilettos with generously cut trousers or business suits so the curve aspect is thus hidden. One couldn't argue that the curve idea was the motivator in this outfit. I think stilettos or thin heels with a suit is about height and power. Since a stiletto is like a dagger or weapon, and weapons and power are again masculine traits, it's quite easy to see how this form of sharp dresing is perfectly valid male fashion image. I'm not taking anything away from how women use or feel about this image, just showing that it's perfectly logical to interpret it in a masculine sense.

[Laurieheels]

Heeled boots are a fine example from history about how heels can be for men. But fancy little shoes with sculpted heels and lace trim, bows, big buckles, in white, well... not something our manly cavalry soldier is going to be wearing when charging across the field of battle. Maybe when he gets home, but that's another issue. As for women wearing trousers, it's more to hide femininity and prevent harassment and discrimination. More power through danger, hiding the seductive parts. Let's face it, we women are paranoid, and television has made us so. We think every male boss is going to be leering at us and firing us if we don't do what he likes. Okay, that is extreme, but it is an underlying reason for some of the fashions women wear, even if no one is realizing it in active thoughts. Cover up to stay safe, I suppose.

[new_look]

i agree that times can be hard for you women, and i agree that Tv and magazines and celebrities have a massive impact in projecting an image in which you are supposed to try and look like. But i think fashion times are hard on men too. Using our heels subject for our fav example. Yes a pair of pink boots with flowers painted on the side, with pinky lasces and buckles and bows, yes that is feminine. But a pair of black plain heeled boots shouldnt give anyone reason to think that us male heelwearers are a group seperate from the rest. Aside from bows and laces, my original point against the poll was that i dont think that heels should be thought of as making the wearer more 'girly'.

[genebujold]

Firefox: "Back to the topic, I can understand the general point about why heels make women more feminine, but different things are going to apply for guys. And for those in between type people, some women's reasons and some men's reasons will both have their influence." Well said! And it pretty much encompasses all. Laurieheels: "From the sole of the shoe, they emerge, and curve inwar, tapering to a point..." Curve, smurve! Most guys like wearing heels for the thrill, not for any enhancing curves... Laurieheels: "Other heels, they look quite manly when thick, despite the height." And thin heels don't "look quite manly?" Your opinion, of course, but I must protest whatever you might mean by "manly." If you mean "studly," then I confess you may be right. But if you mean "XY," then I must protest you may be wrong. Just as many men (more than 30%, to be precise) find fulfillment in transgender-related activities (of which heel-wearing is one), so too many women (far more tha 30%) find fulfillment in transgender-related activities (of which strapping on an F-16C is one). The bottom line is the XX's have busted the girdle, and the XY's are damned tired of the XX's AND the neurotic XY's trying to re-fasten it to the remaining gender. Laurieheels: "Now, conversly to that, good heels on a pair of riding boots would have been important, and quite manly indeed. Several inches to help keep feet in the stirrups would make sense, although I do not have any examples." Actually, the standard 1 inche is more than sufficient to keep the heel in the stirrup. Laurieheels: "We could probably find manly and womanly heels if we looked at everything, and then a grey area in the middle." I would strongly hope that by now everyone on this board has realized that there is no such distinction - that many "manly men" wear "womanly heels," and many "womanly men" wear "manly heels." As for the "grey area in the middle," I strongly believe that it fully extends to the deepest recesses of the XX side as well as to the deepest recesses of the XY side. Bottom line - there's a LOT more going on with gender differentiality throughout the world than you might imagine. The only possible exception of this is, in fact, heels, which were, after all, a predominantly middle (centuries)-European invention. The asian cultures had heels, but they were for the purpose of growing food in a densly wet climate, not necessarily (or originally) for aesthetic fashion. Dear Laurieheels - I've enjoyed your many posts and love your pictures! So I hope you don't find offense at my comments. In fact, I REALLY appreciate your presence on this board, so please understand that my comments are not directed specifically at you, but rather, at the quite common misperceptions (even among "enlightened people") I find, well, pretty much all over the city/state/country/world/internet. So! There remains an incredible amount of misinformation concerning the historical origens and developmental progression of a great many clothing styles, including dresses, heels, and skirts. Bottom line: 1. Dresses (tunics/robes) were worn by both men and women throughout the ages. Why? They were easy to make!!! And comfortable. And configurable. 2. Skirts (kilts/ephods) were worn by both men and women throughout the ages. Why? They were easy to make!!! And comfortable. And configurable. 3. Heels were worn by both men and women throughout the ages. Why? They were NOT easy to make. However, those who could afford it enjoyed the increased stature (men and women) as well as the increased curvature (some men and women). Bottom line: If you would like to wear something, then WEAR it, and to HELL with the rest of society! Yeah, I know that's strong for me, but... oh well! Even a Las Vegan has his off days...

[genebujold]

Firefox: "Since a stiletto is like a dagger or weapon, and weapons and power are again masculine traits, it's quite easy to see how this form of sharp dresing is perfectly valid male fashion image." Ahhh... Some intelligent insight! Well done, Firefox! Perhaps that's why you're the moderator, huh? I can certainly see the connection - everything (daggers and sex, included) is a weapon. Some are direct, some are indirect and symbolic. But all are weapons, and all are aimed at the heads, the hearts, the gonads, or the paycheck (livlihood). Women in the workforce (I know many in the upper echelons) wield power as if their life depended upon it. Perhaps it does. Other women wield sex (appeal), with the titillating temptation of baiting others in the hopes they'll respond favorably to the underlying intentions. Men do pretty much the same thing, though, albeit more from an "I ug, you squaw" point of view. And since the days before, say, Christ, it worked. Since then we've been backpeddling to an ever-increasing onslaught of power/control/iwantlove/iwantsex/iwantkids/iwantsupport from the XX side of the house. Naturally, if we XY-types had provided this all along, there would be no screams from the gallery. Since we didn't , we're pretty much getting what we deserve. But all that's over with, isn't it? Isn't this the "age of Aquarius?" The age of enlightenment? Aren't we all "with it," yet? No? Come ON, people! It's high time the powers that be realize the vast majority of us will stick to whatever contemporary standard of clothing there may be, and the few remaining rest of us will harmlessly engage in a few forays and excursions over societal lines. The bottom line question remains - Are we deconstructing society, or are we merely enhancing societal growth/development/expression? Personally, I'd say the latter. Then again, that is, as they say, "academic."

[Firefox]

I think I agree with most of Laurie's points. She's putting them from how women feel about their image in heels, which was the original catalyst for this thread; examining the reults of the surveys why woman like heels. For my part, I'm only putting the point of view of someone who wears heels as a het guy with guy's fashions. I can't speak for the the other groups who may wear heels for some reason, though I can guess at their motives by what I have read on forums like this one. What Laurie says about ornementation or bows and the like is true for me. I like my boots quite plain . They may have thin heels on some of them, but most are plain and black with thicker heels. Now a flamboyant freestyler or CD might argue that there's no reason why men shouldn't like bows and frills or fancy colours. Yet again that's a valid viewpoint as they are trying to achieve a different look, or even in some cases impersonate the other gender. I don't believe the masculine enhancement possibilities of heels are very well understood because the guys who use them in this way are a relatively small group. The concept of women, CD's, or drag queens in heels is a much more widely publicised idea. Insularity breeds ignorance and ignorance can breed fear.

[Laurieheels]

Gene, I do take offense, because of your curves shmurves comment, for one.

I was simply trying to explain what that shoe does for a woman.

Thin heels on a man don't make him more feminine, but on a woman, they do.

All I was trying to write about was that certain styles can enhance what exists already. It was not to say men could not wear anything, or shouldn't, and everyone knows that i already have the viewpoint of "just go and be happy, so long as no one else is hurt"

I am a WOMAN and my experience with heels is as a WOMAN. See? I know I have attributes others like to look at, and I know what my shoes and clothing can do to enhance it. So I am speaking about that.

And yes, some women are of the mindset that this style of shoe is for women, and they feel men are invading something of the sacred female ritual.

Whatever society has done to make things as they are, you have to change it through understanding and compassion. Not overbearing points, which you then have to add a disclaimer for.

Be happy in your choice, and choose it for yourself. The world cannot change unless you do your small part to change it.

Doing that here is preaching to a community that already believes in what you are saying.

So when we women say that heels make us more feminine and empowered, it is not because the shoe has direct male or female attributes. It is how the shoes enhance our own attributes.

And if a man can wear them to enhance male attributes, that's great.

But we wear our stiletto heels for the creation of a curve line, for the change in posture, to enhance the things most men drool over as their testosterone levels incerase, or whatever happens to them.

Off day or not, please remember that you can edit your message. After reading it over, once posted, you can go in and soften it up, for the consideration of others.

I hate to bring this up here, but it is big ranting messages like that which cause many women to refrain from posting here.

[genebujold]

Laurie, for one, it's Gene', not "Gene." For another, I'm a playful individual, and this is supposed to be a fun site. If you take offense to what I say to you, you leave me with little choice but to stop replying to your posts. But that's not what I want. I'd much rather we get past this and continue both serious discussion as well as fun. As for the rest of your post, you've some good comments, but I'd not reply if it's your intention to bite my head off when my opinions differ from yours. If that's not your intention, please let me know and I'll do my best to keep from offending you. The ball's in your court...

[new_look]

i have to agree with fox. My heels and my preferred styles are plain styles, even though i do won a couple of pairs of stilettos. I say again my original idea of this board was that my disagreement was with the fact that heels make the 'wearer' appear more feminine. I do not consider myself a transvestite in heels anymore than a woman considers herself a transvestite when she wears masculine men's shoes, a baseball cap, a man's tie, etc. I do not try to present myself as a woman and therefore, I do not believe that I am a transvestite, or any feminine projection come to that. No women take offense to this but the vast majority of you are all for womens rights. Women want to be equal to men, do what men do, and in most cases get it, so why can't it go both ways. Men should be able to have what women have too should they want to. Daz

[Laurieheels]

I am sorry, then, since I thought I was getting a vibe of a major attitude from your post, and not fun. It seemed defiant, as if you were out to make your point known as the only one. Everyone knows that I am quite outspoken, and I keep so much of it inside, since I am a moderator as much as a member. Believe me, if you think I post a lot now, you would be stunned by the rate of posting I'd have if I didn't have to think about my role here. You will learn how to handle things over time, and how to convey the correct sense of emotion with the postings. of that I have no doubt, and I am looking forward to how you adapt to the flavour of this message board. That is always very exciting! The ball is not in my court, and I refuse to have it be that way. Besides, that's very much a basketball term, and basketball brings up bad memories. Only you can decide whether or not I am being sincere, or vicious, or anything. Others may know what I mean, and you may not. See, I have no problems with the decision on whether or not to post, I just make them as the moment needs. Whether or not you wish to reply to something I have written is totally your choice, and trying to claim that it is up to me is, well, a popular tactic, but I won't fall for it. I don't mean any harm, I am always fun loving and whimsical, smiling behind my keyboard. Laurieheels is as much a persona as she is a person. For more than two years people have had to learn how I actually do things, and what my real attitude is. And this may take you some time to learn, and I hope you can come to realize that I am passionate about life, about shoes, but under it all, I am having fun and hope that you can as well. But we must remember that words are weapons, and we should use them with great care. So I accept that you are just having fun, and I hope you understand that I am as well. Of course, we all need to adapt in situations. As for the name, Gene, well, you'll learn that I take great liberty with names. People who have been in the chat room can tell you that. Correcting me on it doesn't change anything, I just smile and keep it up.

[genebujold]

I do not consider myself a transvestite in heels anymore than a woman considers herself a transvestite when she wears masculine men's shoes, a baseball cap, a man's tie, etc.

Daz

Daz - simply wonderful! Incredibly well put.

You know what? You and the rest of the wonderful posters as well as this whole sordid mess has inspired me to find a fake pair and go out en-femme for a month, just to see what happens.

I'll keep you posted!

[Slim]

Well, I think pumps etc are for girls. Laurie sure looks good in them. Myself, I like boots (4"+) and I don't like the heels any bigger than a US quarter at the tip. In my opinion they are as male as a cigar or a gun. The sodbuster plowboy boots they sell today for cowboy boots are nothing more than a glove for the foot.

[Carolyn]

Laurie sums up my feelings about high heels. I can't add anything to that. I do think this issue of men wearing high heels seems to get blown up out of all proportion on this forum. I've never seen it, but it's all cool by me. Let the men wear whatever heels they want if they can. They will soon find out it is not as easy as it looks. I'm talking 18/7 here, not the occasional trip from the bedroom to the bathroom while the wife isn't looking ~Caz

[new_look]

Daz - simply wonderful! Incredibly well put.

You know what? You and the rest of the wonderful posters as well as this whole sordid mess has inspired me to find a fake pair and go out en-femme for a month, just to see what happens.

I'll keep you posted!

Thanks m8