Is Society Being More Tolerant?

[Tech]

Hiya Kneehighs With all due respect buddy, whats that got to do with "Men in heels" ? Your talking about Gender descrimination, were talking about footwear.

[kneehighs]

Hey Richie, Well, there is sex discrimination, which is discrimination based on one's sex: Male or Female. Then there is gender discrimination, which is discrimination based on one's appearance of Masculinity or Femininity. 'Sex' and 'Gender' thus address two different topics. Gender Expression laws specifically protect one's right to express themselves outwardly by behavior, clothing, or norms stereotypically associated with the opposite SEX. This would include a man wearing high heels. If the incident that occurred in South Kensington (where the bouncer stopped me and asked me if I "nicked" my shoes and mocked me to other patrons) happened here in New York City, I'd have drafted a complaint based on the bouncer violating NYC Gender Expression Laws. Gender expression is just the way the legal world here in the U.S. addresses the full spectrum of men wearing women's clothing, from full TV/CD to the mere wearing of high heels.

[raymond.nl]

Those of you who might get laughed at (Very few minority), are being laughed at not out of in-tolerance or non-acceptance, but probably because you look like an idiot. (Dont ask me to start naming names)

(I can happily say that because I've seen some of the photo's)

Richie, you had me laughing out loud. But no matter how often you tell people it's no big deal, they won't believe you because in some heads -- the heads of some of us wearing high heels -- it is a big deal.

I wholly agree with replacing the "tolerance" issue by an "appreciation" issue. Of course people will "tolerate" me wearing heels. How can they not? Bang me over the head?!? In 2008? Not where I live. And even on the appreciation thing I easily score 80% or so.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious: that not all male high heel wearers have a fashion sense. It's almost like we're just like anybody else!

[Tech]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious: that not all male high heel wearers have a fashion sense. It's almost like we're just like anybody else!

I hope nobody took that the wrong way?

I'm no fashion Guru myself, just your average everyday kinda guy, but I think "Fashion sense" is not "most mens" area of expertese?

But I do feel that we need to get away from this phrasing thought because part of what creates this negative air around wearing heels is the fact that everybody talks about it like its almost a sin.

If everybody keeps harping on about seeking acceptance, tolerance etc, your adding to the problem by building it up into something that some will find a "big deal", whereas if we only ever spoke about it in terms of "likes/dis-likes" etc, then wearing heels can retain its fashion connotations, and not be made into some huge taboo that some might think would even need "tolerance"

Society doesnt care, its all in the heads of the wearers, so "bigging it up" so to speak isnt helping anybody is it?

[yozz]

This would include a man wearing high heels. If the incident that occurred in South Kensington (where the bouncer stopped me and asked me if I "nicked" my shoes and mocked me to other patrons) happened here in New York City, I'd have drafted a complaint based on the bouncer violating NYC Gender Expression Laws.

Gender expression is just the way the legal world here in the U.S. addresses the full spectrum of men wearing women's clothing, from full TV/CD to the mere wearing of high heels.

I think your suit would raise some interesting questions that the defense of the bouncer

could bring up:

1: According to most members of HHplace wearing just high heels isn't cross dressing

but a fashion statement.

2: As long as restaurants are required to demand for instance that male patrons wear

a jacket and a tie, the gender expression could only be interpreted in this case that you

have to come either properly dressed as a male or as a female according to going

fashion. So either you come with a jacket, a tie and 'proper' shoes or you come in a

proper dress etc.

As I understand it these things can be pretty tough, depending on the lawyers involved.

Y.

[yozz]

I hope nobody took that the wrong way?

I'm no fashion Guru myself, just your average everyday kinda guy, but I think "Fashion sense" is not "most mens" area of expertese?

Don't take this wrong. In the end your clothes are your personal expression. But....

I don't think one has to be a fashion guru to see that some outfits are put together better

than others. If one wears violently colored shoes and for the rest rather blandly colored

clothes, many people will consider this not attractive

and even think you look ridiculous.

Put these shoes together with clothes with colors in the same frame of mind,

one may get a very attractive outfit. Although maybe very uncommon not ridiculous.

It is the same as when you see somebody with green or purple hair, you don't expect

a grey three piece bussiness suit. Somehow in most peoples mind that doesn't go

together. With a wild t-shirt nobody will think it strange (at least in Amsterdam).

The difference may be that some drunk sees you as a target to molest you (intolerance).

Y.

[Tech]

The difference may be that some drunk sees you as a target to molest you (intolerance).

Thats not intolerance, thats a drunk, doing what they do best.

If on the other hand you mean that in the sense that you may be picked on because your different, then I'd have to say it all depends on how you carry yourself.

If you walk and act in a weak, sheepish manner, then regardless of what you wear, you might be more prone to problems than those who carry themselves confidently and act just so, but that still doesnt have any bearing on "Tolerance" at all.

[Bubba136]

[Let it be know to all that read the following, that this is my opinion, and my opinion alone.}

This is an extremely complicated subject dealing with just about all of the different aspects of human behavior, accented on psychology – behavioral, social, etc., etc., and every other psychological “phenom” imaginable.

First things first, though. Attitude, acceptance, tolerance. Separate words. Each word has its own definition. And, when discussing a subject as complex as this, you really can’t use these words interchangeably even though they do mesh quite nicely.

i.e.: (Dictionary definitions)

Tolerate: Inclined to tolerate the beliefs, practices, or traits of others; forbearing. See Synonyms at broad-minded.

Attitude:

1. Not narrow or conservative in thought, expression, or conduct: broad, broad-minded, liberal, open-minded, progressive.

2. A frame of mind affecting one's thoughts or behavior:

3. A general cast of mind with regard to something: feeling, sentiment.

Acceptance:

1. the act or process of accepting: acquiescence, agreement, assent, consent, nod, yes.

2. the state of being accepted or acceptable

3. Favorable regard: approbation, approval, favor,

There really shouldn’t be any disagreement between Richie and Kneehighs. Actually two different issues cataloged under the same subject. Both men are correct in their application of thought. Richie in describing the general population’s view of people engaging in, what society continues to describe as “an anti-social behavior” – men wearing women’s shoes and/or other items of women’s apparel. And, Kneehighs in describing corporate and other types of unlawful discrimination against gender identification in business, public facilities and services, etc.

As Dr. Shoe commented:

This whole "tolerance" thing is in our own heads. You see society has never been particularly intolerant, more indifferent. Sure a tiny minority has always had an issue with homophobia but just like racism this is not going to go away.

From where I stand, as a man that hasn’t worn a pair of men’s shoes in well over a decade, this isn’t a question that begins with “our” seeking society’s permission to wear our high heels – and other items of female clothing - whenever and where ever we want. This whole issue is about our own perception of our practice being stigmatized as “inappropriate” by the whole of society. We are taught from the beginning that such practices are something to be ashamed of and, should we desire to participate in such behavior, we need to do it secretly, behind closed doors, in order to prevent damaging our reputations and shaming our families and acquaintances.

Although some of us bluster and brag to each other here on this forum that we’ve conquered the guilt and shame imbedded into our psychic since birth, trying to convince each other that we no longer care what anyone might think, the truth is that we’ve not gotten over it --yet. Otherwise, why would we so forcefully seek the general public’s "approval" that would allow us to wear our high heels everywhere?

And, again, like Dr. Shoe says:

By and large nobody gives a toss what you put on your feet or what you wear really as long as you keep yourself to yourself.

Posting our complaint that society is unfair and calling for other’s to permit us to appear among them in our heels without their questioning our sexuality, manliness or gender identification, is actually our statement to each other about our not agreeing with the rest of humanity because we aren’t accepted in “civilized” circles solely because of our proclivities. I often wondered what the usefulness to our cause was by doing this. Especially on a website that no one who isn’t interested in the subject reads.

I agree with Richie.

Get off this whole sad case "tolerance" BS because society doesnt give a crap what you put on your feet. Those of you who might get laughed at (Very few minority), are being laughed at not out of in-tolerance or non-acceptance, but probably because you look like an idiot.

And, with him when he says:

I really do think so many of you blow something so insignificant, way out of proportion by using this whole "When will society be more tolerant" and "How can we get acceptance" non-sense, it really is rubbish.

So, what to do? Well, I can’t answer that question except to say that each member here, that wants to wear their high heels anytime and anywhere they want to, is to stop wasting their time by regurgitating – over and over the "whine" that we’re not appreciated, tolerated, accepted, or our practice isn’t approved of, and just get on with the task at hand. Put on your nicest pair of high heels and go forth in public with confidence and pride. And, eventually, as Dr. Shoe also said:

You may not notice as many double-takes or strange looks when you go out in heels but I think that is only because you are far more confident and just not looking for them.

As to Kneehighs’ comment:

there is sex discrimination, which is discrimination based on one's sex: Male or Female. Then there is gender discrimination, which is discrimination based on one's appearance of Masculinity or Femininity. 'Sex' and 'Gender' thus address two different topics. Gender Expression laws specifically protect one's right to express themselves outwardly by behavior, clothing, or norms stereotypically associated with the opposite SEX. This would include a man wearing high heels

He’s absolutely correct. However, while this type of discrimination isn’t the same our “being accepted” complaint, it is entirely appropriate to raise this type of discrimination hand in hand when discussing discrimination against a man appearing in public wearing high heels. And, while it would appear a little foolish signing a complaint against anyone that reacted negatively towards us while walking about in heels, it would be completely suitable to sign one against any person or firm that refuses service or entry solely because of our outward “gender oriented” appearance.

Here's happy heeling with you kid!

[Guest]

my hat's off to ya bubba (if I had one on that is:wink:) VERY WELL SAID!!

[johnieheel]

WOW! Full steam ahead! LOL I think maybe I should have elaborated a little on the question at hand, is society being more tolerant? Something like, is society being more tolerant about men in heels in man mode? Meaning jeans and heels, or something like I wear in public that most of you have seen and if some of you haven't, I will be glad to re post some pics of what I wear in public. Trust me. It's not black jeans, pink heels with bows and a frilly blouse I'm talking about. On the other hand, there are some very interesting comments and statements going on in this thread. Keep um commin fellas! This is good stuff. TU Johnieheel.

[benno]

Of course society is becoming more tolerant. Not just of men wearing more feminine clothing, but of everything. Just look at recreational drug use, women having more/better jobs, racism is lower everywhere and being gay is not a perversion. To say that society doesn't care when faced with something odd and confrontational just simply isn't true. Once a few years have gone by and the general public see that these people with crazy new lifestyles are not nutters or paedophiles then the shock goes away and we get tolerance and acceptance and even a few more converts and supporters... Regarding the previous few posts about outfits and sheepishness I still think that a man wearing visible heels with an otherwise totally masculine outfit looks like he has a shoe fetish. This is possibly why some members with bad experiences have been single out and mocked or laughed at. In my experience if you wear an outfit that is balanced and a mix of masculine and feminine then poeple will not notice the shoes first. Also try to exude confidence and you win people over. The more I wear heels openly the more I just don't care what people say or think. The only exception is a classic suit but then it would need to be cut slimmer and/or be accessorised with something like a corsage, fascinator or a more frilly shirt to give the look some balance. No one has said anything that is entirely negative to me. EVER. I agree with Richie that we should stop scaring each other and put on nice outfits and shoes and go outside.

[johnieheel]

I still think that a man wearing visible heels with an otherwise totally masculine outfit looks like he has a shoe fetish. I totaly disagree. I present myself as a man in heels in total mens cloths with confidence and a bit of a sense of humor with a smile and get treated not like a man with a shoe fetish, but as me. John in heels.

[sabotalot]

I will reinterate; the only feedback that I have has was when wearing clogs: a sidewalk vendor had an obvious guffaw. I stopped to pick up some adult beverages at a local beverage store and heard clerk sneer; needless to say I have never been back there; spent a whole morning last fall in pumps, having my car repaired; spoke with customers without any problems. I try to dress well; I look at myself in a full-length mirror before venturing out.

[Stilettoscot]

Also try to exude confidence and you win people over. The more I wear heels openly the more I just don't care what people say or think.

I agree with Richie that we should stop scaring each other and put on nice outfits and shoes and go outside.

This is the part I, and I am sure many, other guys are having difficulty with. Good advice. I'll keep saying that to myself when I am ready to go into a public place with my stilettos on, knowing people will see....

[benno]

I still think that a man wearing visible heels with an otherwise totally masculine outfit looks like he has a shoe fetish.

I totaly disagree. I present myself as a man in heels in total mens cloths with confidence and a bit of a sense of humor with a smile and get treated not like a man with a shoe fetish, but as me. John in heels.

Hey Johnny. I should have written 'Most men'. It has become apparent that there may be exceptions to a rule that I made up myself. But then you do seem to wear more masculinely styled feminine shoes! If that makes sense?

I still feel that wearing something else that balances your look helps with acceptance. As an example... On Satuday night we went to a party called 'Icons & Idols'. My girlfried, a male friend and I went (somewhat arrogantly but with tounges firmly in cheeks) as an Electro Rock band from the future. I wore some really high patent khaki hidden platform ankle strap heels. If I had worn then with 'normal' clothes it wouldn't have worked and I would have looked unbalanced. I wore them with hot pink slightly metallic leggings, pale gold leg warmers a white 80s rock chick belt and a pale yellow t shirt with a snake printed around the shoulders.

Cheers,

Ben

[Tech]

This is the part I, and I am sure many, other guys are having difficulty with. Good advice. I'll keep saying that to myself when I am ready to go into a public place with my stilettos on, knowing people will see....

Who says you have to go outside with stilettos on?

Why cant you start out slowly and work your way up later?

Are stilettos even suitable for your build/shape?

Hey Johnny. I should have written 'Most men'. It has become apparent that there may be exceptions to a rule that I made up myself. But then you do seem to wear more masculinely styled feminine shoes! If that makes sense?

John's shoes arn't masculine, in any way shape or form....

[Stilettoscot]

Richie, Well, I'm not sure if my body type is "suitable" by most people's standards, but I can run in 4+" stilettos with no problems, so I can wear them well. Plus, I love the look and walk with them, so I guess, for me, they do fit my body type. As for wearing them out, I'm kept them in or worn them discreetly at night for too long! Over the last couple months, I have built the confidence (thanks to some friends and my sister) to go out more, and am glad I have. Last night, I walked to a friend's busy apt complex for a poker game at about 10PM. Saw quite a few people, but pushed on... Big "step" for me.

[Tech]

Scot Dont worry, I've already seen the photo you have posted all over the web site. I was simply planting questions upon you based upon the comments you already came out with, but not actually asking if that makes sense. You dont have to go out with stilettos on, it could be some other type of hheel footwear if your confidence needs building? Your physical build is really big though, which (Regardless of gender) always looks a little out of sync with stilettos or anything "dainty" on the feet. It was said before here, i cant remember who wrote it, about big things on top of small objects and shoes to match the stature/build.. Anyway, you wear whatever makes you happy

[Stilettoscot]

Good point. I hadn't really thought of it that way. I figured I wasn't really into block heels much (although wedges...not bad), or lower/more discreet ones. I do like reading the stories of others going out with theirs and having no problems. I would be willing to bet it would be like that here, too...and hoping to have more of my own to share. So far, I would "guess" society, at least here, has been more tolerant. Would they be more tolerant to a larger framed guy in stilettos is the question? For a bigger guy, I do have dainty feet. And, to me, the blockier heels do nothing to "slim" my appearance (but then I am not exactly Mr Style..).

[benno]

This applies to EVERYONE that wears stilettos with baggy jeans and shapeless t shirts... 1. Go and see a stylist. Be honest and tell them you want to integrate heels into your look. 2. Ditch the baggy t shirt. Get a really nice slightly feminine shirt instead. 3. Burn those jeans then go and buy some that show off you legs. 4. Go and buy a great slim cut jacket. 5. Buy some shoes that don't make you look like you are on 2 little sticks. If you must wear spindly heels then buy some with small preferably hidden platforms. 6. Smile more 7. Look in the mirror and realise how great you look.

[hhboots]

Funny you should mentin that. Just yesterday afternoon, I saw a young man in a popular strip mall area crowded with shoppers. No more than 20 or so, he sported a black leather jacket, jeans so tight they could've been spray painted on, checkered sneakers and, the finishing touch: a spiked mohawk that was light brown, almost blond and was easily a foot high.

Oh, sure, that kid got plenty of stares and double takes, but nothing more than that. That got me to thinking, that if those same people saw that kid, then me wearing heels, who would entertain more derision? Chances are, probably me as society is used to goths and headbangers, but not men in heels? That's going take a while to sink in with the public I'm afraid.

I like how this was stated and fully agree. I am gradually building confidence to go out in heels more often, but as I have said before, I do it very low key. There is no way I am ready to do a strappy stiletto on the street, maybe someday eventually, but I cannot picture myself doing that anytime in the near future.

Yes, unfortunately, the extreme goth punk looking guy is much more accepted than a man in stilletos at the mall and that is due to a bit more prevalence of his look (about 1 in 100 in my area, maybe more, maybe less depending on your area). I very rarely see any other man out in even stealthy heels (less than 1 in 5000 I would guess, maybe that is just in my area). So I would be an extreme exception being seen in obvious heels out, just not ready to be that bold.

[benno]

I think it has more to do with the completeness of his look. Recently I saw an episode of Top Gear (An almost ironic petrol headed programme here in the UK about cars and motoring) they were raving about a new version of a Jaguar XJ and thought it was one of the best cars in the world, but they wouldn't buy it because the grill made it look like it was an old lady sucking sour apples. They summised saying that several Jaguar dealers here in the UK would happily fit a grill from another version to make the car look good. So no matter how wonderful and happy a person you are... If you look 'wrong' even down to one little detail you will be looked at. The difference between greatness and derision can be one tiny detail

[gwl1]

Yes, but beauty or lack of it is in the eye of the beholder. Most of us, I would predict, would not laugh at a guy in heels, because we do it often ourselves, see ourselves in the mirror, and we're used to the idea. But consider that most of the world would see a stark contrast that they couldn't figure out. "Hmmm...a guy dressed in male clothes, yet wearing obviously women's shoes. What's with this guy?" The resulting confusion can often be expressed as laughter, not meant to deride the wearer, but just as an expression of the unexpected contrast. So, just beware that what looks good to us might not look good to others - maybe most others. Not yet anyway. In 5 or 10 years, as more and more of us get seen, it will become less uncommon to see a guy in heels, and a person who laughed the first time might not laugh the next time. There will exist a pigeonhole in his/her mind that stores the image and experience from the first time. As an analogy, remember when you first saw a guy wearing earrings? Your mouth probably fell open. Maybe you laughed? You certainly stared. Not so after seeing them a couple more times and today, who hardly even notices? It's pretty common, right? GWL

[Bubba136]

JeffB, as a man of 52, what kind of reaction would I provoke should I appear in public dressed identically to that young man? In my opinion, dressing in that manner is not unusual for youngsters his age and genearation. Therefore, adults forgive his unorthodox appearance because of his youth. But, for a middle aged adult male I think I would reallly generate some negative feedback. Probably far more than my following him around wearing heels.

[roniheels]

Good point. I hadn't really thought of it that way. I figured I wasn't really into block heels much (although wedges...not bad), or lower/more discreet ones.

I do like reading the stories of others going out with theirs and having no problems. I would be willing to bet it would be like that here, too...and hoping to have more of my own to share.

So far, I would "guess" society, at least here, has been more tolerant. Would they be more tolerant to a larger framed guy in stilettos is the question?

For a bigger guy, I do have dainty feet. And, to me, the blockier heels do nothing to "slim" my appearance (but then I am not exactly Mr Style..).

Stilettoscot...

I'm 54 years old and have worn high heels since the 70's when men wearing "disco" high heels was in style. After the disco era ended I started wearing feminine high heels. And, like everyone who wears high heels in public, you have to work up to it and take small steps (that's the only way I can walk in high heels..LOL). But seriously, chose the shoes that you want to be seen in, go to the saftey places (mailbooxes, newspaper boxes, etc.) until you are confident enough to wear them wherever you want. The more public heeling I've been doing, and I've been inspired by many members at this website to do so, the more places I go wearing 4" and 5" stiletto high heels. I use to be concerned with the reactions, now I look forward to them and acknowledge the positive with the negative. Good luck to you on your decisions.

[bootsforme]

I think society is becoming more tolerant of ...everything, really. I see it everywhere. There are more mixed-race couples, less concern about "looking your age," etc. Less concern about whether or not you wear the standard "navy blue suit and white shirt" to work. And it will probably continue in this direction for a while.

[johnieheel]

I have to agree with bootsform on that one. From my own personal experience, the reactions are getting fewer and fewer every time I go out in heels, which is almost all the time. Seems after the person first notices, thats the end of it. No big deal, that guy likes to wear heels, so what or oh well kinda of look then goes on about their daily business. Now it wasn't to long ago where I had a little fear and then found out it was for no reason at all. You will still get the young group of narrow minded followers, boys and girls, that feel a need to giggle and poke a little fun but I believe it too is getting fewer and fewer as people of all ages and races are getting used to seeing (individuality).

[raymond.nl]

From my own personal experience, the reactions are getting fewer and fewer every time I go out in heels, which is almost all the time.

... but then again it could be that you wear your heels with more self esteem and confidence every time you go out. When it's no big deal to you, it's likely to be no big deal to others.

[johnieheel]

... but then again it could be that you wear your heels with more self esteem and confidence every time you go out. When it's no big deal to you, it's likely to be no big deal to others.

Good point.

[Pam]

I do believe that, in general, society is more open. However, I think confidence increases the perception of society's openness to new fashions in general. I've had the opportunity to be in get-togethers with some members of this site in social settings whom wear heels with a LOT of confidence. This has been the differentiating factor of how society reacts and accepts (or not) a man wearing heels. my 2c ...