Help With Explaination

[BTBAIHeels]

Hey all! I have questions. Now any of you in your 50's I need your help since that's the general age of my parents. How can I explain to them that I like girl shoes, heels to be specific. Background info: my parents are born-again Christians and so am I. You might see my problem. But all I want to know is, How do I at least tell my mom?

Thanks, And don't forget to be the best around!

[ilikekicks]

Its going to be quite hard for you to explain or ask for acceptence for anything as you have already put up artificial barricades.

 

"Born-again Christians" or not doesnt matter. Black or white doesnt matter. Indian, Pakistani, Jew, Muslim.. none of it matters.

 

What your trying to accomplish is telling a pair of human beings that you enjoy a particular type of clothing. THAT is what it comes down to.

 

Does it matter if its Levis 501 blues, a skirt or a polo shirt? They are all clothes. Nothing more. Very simple thing.

 

What you *could* do would be to ask your folks " What did they wear when Jesus walked the earth? Do you think I could get away with such today to be in his likeness? " and see where it goes from there. 

[crotchhiboots]

I would tell them that duterotmy :22 does not apply anymore and that they are just shoes.

[Dr. Shoe]

I wouldn't even bother. I would just wear shoes and if they said anything I'd just shrug and say "well I like them..."

 

The problem is if you sit someone down and tell them then you make it a big deal. What you want is acceptance, you do not do this by making it a big deal.

 

It's different when it's a wife or girlfriend, but even then you need to keep it light.

[Rockbass19]

Being a former "born again", now atheist, my advice to you - don't tell them anything.  Most born-agains tend not to think for themselves and aren't open-minded.  The bible says (Deut 22:5) that god detests men that wear women's clothing, and vice versa.  However, some Christians interpret this a little differently, to only include those people who want to change their full appearance to that of the opposite gender.  This interpretation allows women the right to wear pants without fear of pissing off their god.  You could use this as a defense, too, as long as you don't want to look like a woman.  In that case, they are just shoes. 

 

To be safe - keep it to yourself.  Enjoy your heels as you see fit.  Don't feel guilty for not telling them - they're just shoes you happen to like.

[mlroseplant]

I don't want to make a simplistic reply, but if you've got the confidence, show up at church in heels, and see what happens. I know bluejay and I wear heels to church all the time, and neither of us have been ex-communicated, LOL. To be clear, I don't know bluejay personally, but I do know he attends church regularly in heels, as do I.

I won't get into it right now, but any biblical arguments against men wearing heels are silly, and easily dealt with. I'll stay tuned, I'm interested to know how it turns out.

[Shafted]

Please, no biblical arguments. Like politics, it's just too hot for this forum.

[mlroseplant]

Please, no biblical arguments. Like politics, it's just too hot for this forum.

I'm assuming any potential biblical arguments against the male wearing of heels will be taking place outside this forum. No worries!

[Shafted]

I'm assuming any potential biblical arguments against the male wearing of heels will be taking place outside this forum. No worries!

A correct assumption.

[BTBAIHeels]

Thanks Rockbass19 and others, but speciffically rockbass, you are right, my parents are pretty narrow minded. I want to expand how narrow it is though, i want to help them see even though the bible says lgbt is bad, that What would Jesus do? would he put them down or what, since he is a figure of good, im hoping that it can help.

[ilikekicks]

This is where the problem is OR where I see it.. thus I tried to simplify..

 

 Most born-agains tend not to think for themselves and aren't open-minded.  The bible says (Deut 22:5) that god detests men that wear women's clothing, and vice versa.  

 

I know Quite a few people whom claim to be ' Christians '. Some are Homosexuals. Imagine that! Some wank to porn and have no issue at all to state what they like even when not asked. Some get drunk and drive their cars home from pubs. Some are black, some are white, some are PR's. I know Jews whom all do as those ' Christians '. The Jews are all of differing flavor. Orthodox, reformist.. all kinds.

 

This is why I tossed the whole ' Religious ' thing out as the guys parents were/are *human beings* long before they found ' God '. 

 

One could easily say ' Most blacks are criminals! They fill the prisons in disproportionate numbers! They are all on welfare and get food stamps! '. One could say ' Those people whom live down south are all redneck trailer trash! They dont have any teeth and cant read or write! '. Some could say people whom attend ' University ' or college as its called in the states really are mentally challenged, taking on 100,000$ in debt before they even land their first ' real ' job and have to work like a slave for many years paying off their loans.

 

 

NONE of what I stated should be accepted as any form of truth as theres good and bad in all kinds and differing situations hold different results. Even saying ' most ' is wrong. Do ' most ' guys whom wear heels also have homosexual tendencies? Do we wish to be women? Are we born wrong? *I* dont think so. I dont believe any of us are ' bad ' people.

 

We are ALL differing flavors. Sure, theres some of us whom are gay. Some whom are PR. Some whom are Jews, Some whom are white, some whom are black.. Were all different. We like what are called ' Womens Attire ', ' Born Agains ' like their god, they and us are of the same mindset. We ( you and I ) have a belief in what clothing we like and wear it as desired. They have their belief, different then ours ( yours and mine. I bet there is someone on this site whos a born again christian but wont say anything because they will get tossed into the stereotyped ' most born agains ' category. ).

 

The absolute WORST thing I have ever had a ' born again ' say to me, directly and in person was ' your sinning and I will pray for you to find god '. No violence, no threats, nothing even remotely uncomfortable felt by myself.

 

I WISH I could say the same about some ' other ' people I have met whom have thrown me through a bar window, pulled a gun, stabbed me, Stolen my music equipment, called me ' friend ' and then took some money I had laying around from my business.. The list of ' wrongs ' from those ' non born agains ' surely outweighs the comment in regards to hoping my soul is going to a good place when my days pass.

 

One could say You ( RockBass ) and I ( ILK ) are druggies and live piss-poor lifestyles as were supposed ' musicians '. We probably shoot heroin, run around knocking up all kinds of women, have a bunch of tatoos and cant keep a steady job. I dont know about you, but I work 14-16hrs a day helping manage some 12,000+ Acres of farm. I dont have any tatoos, piercings and the only drug I ever use is some pot once in a great while and NEVER when playing a musical instrument ( I get real lazy and slow when stoned. hinders my playing greatly ). I havent had a drink in over 22 years, not a single beer, not a single shot.. not even a glass of wine at a dinner. Crazy huh?

 

In *my* instance, one of the people Im running against for a local Town Board Seat is a Reverend. He leads a congregation in the Town.

 

He doesnt cuss, isnt into openly speaking of women as the ' guys ' usually do. He doesnt drink. He told everyone at a debate how he will pray for them even AFTER the other opponent he and I are against mocked his God in some pretty bad words that even pissed ME off. He does volunteer work at the Local Hospital and the Childrens Hospital in the City. Hes done missionary work overseas ( I dont remember where though ). His first words to me when we met and he saw my wedge boots? " Is it hard to walk in those? Ive never seen a guy wearing anything like that. " and thats ALL he has said to this date. Hasnt asked anything else nor even made any real comments directly associated with what I wear outside of ' that looks nice ' or ' I liked the outfit you wore last time better. '.

 

If *WE* as guys want acceptance, *WE* need to not degrade others.

 

Using the terms ' closed minded ' and ' narrow minded ' .. to say such delegates us to the same term we would try to apply to someone else. I used to be guilty of it myself, no longer though.

 

To show reflection in what I mean, I will use an example : " YOU are Narrow AND Closed minded ( as well as intolerant ) of others in what you have said about ' Born Again Christians '. You have labeled MOST of them ( yadda, yadda, yadda.. ) " See what I mean?

 

We complain of something somebody does.. then do it ourselves. In most instances we dont even comprehend we are doing it and we deny such is even happening. 

 

In this instance, the young guy doesnt accept his parents beliefs and they dont accept his. He calls them ' narrow minded '. Is he NOT the same by the same standard?

 

Food for thought.

-ILK

Thanks Rockbass19 and others, but speciffically rockbass, you are right, my parents are pretty narrow minded. I want to expand how narrow it is though, i want to help them see even though the bible says lgbt is bad, that What would Jesus do? would he put them down or what, since he is a figure of good, im hoping that it can help.

 

Lets be ( supposedly ) ' Open Minded ' about this.

 

You state your parents are ' narrow minded ', yet they had you, loved you ( in some way or another ) and raised you well enough that you can think for yourself. I think it would be safe to say you were fed and clothed in your younger years. Not left out in the cold or inclimate/bad weather. You were educated enough that you can communicate with others.

 

Maybe instead of labeling your parents as being ' narrow minded ', you should be ' open minded ' enough to realize that our parents dont owe us much of anything when we become adults. They dont owe us any kind of acceptance outside of THEIR beliefs. We can choose our own just as they have and pass on to our own kids what *we* feel we should.

 

We shouldnt call our parents ' narrow minded ' after all they have done for you ( us ).

 

In short, I know many people whom would love to sit down and call their parents ' narrow minded ' but they cant. Their parents are no longer with us and they are ( in almost every instance ) sorely missed by their children. Now that they are gone, a lot of regrets enter the picture.

 

Be glad you have the chance to speak with your folks. Mine are fading fast these days. They are Orthodox Jewish and strict about their beliefs but Im not going to belittle them and call them ' narrow minded ' after all they have done for me. It would make me look like a very unappreciative individual with no respect for them. Thats just how *I* would feel about *myself*. Others can feel differently if they wish.

 

I would like to have a conversation with my Mother about the newest pair of heels that were given to me. Its unfortunate that she would first have to recognize whom was even in the room with her.

 

Im going to be the absolute ' jerk ' here and say someday you will regret calling your folks ' narrow minded '. I understand your Young ( probably 30 or less years ) and havent started loosing those around you or those you grew up with. When they start to ' go ', you will have a whole new view of your surroundings.

[Dr. Shoe]

The bible says (Deut 22:5) that god detests men that wear women's clothing, and vice versa. 

 

The main reason was because the pagan priests in the surrounding areas would don the clothes of their sacrificial virgins as part of the ritual. There is no mention (IIRC) of women wearing men's clothes.

[Histiletto]

What ever you say that directly deals with this is going to cause contention and issues on how it happened. They will blame you for succumbing to such enticements and then they will feel guilt and blame themselves for lacking the parenting skills to keep you from incurring such desires. To them, you were born with your sex and gender and their responsibility is to bring you up as they have been taught and understand life. You can't know all of their experiences in this area because they were probably private and singularly perceived. They might have even squelched any of these type of cognitions in order to return in compliance with their social/religious directives. If you could talk with them about their perceptions and how they arrived at their conclusions, may be this will help to open the dialogue you wish to discuss. Sometimes placing suggestions of your thoughts for them to ponder on at different times might be enough to set the atmosphere for such conversations. You'd have to play it by ear for the optimal opportunities to present your experiences concerning the desire you have to wear heels. They may never accept it, but the line of communication would still be intact. I wish you and anyone else success in wanting to show your parents the respect and love you have for them. 

[Guest]

I would have just walked away from the so called "born again", boy talk about a few loose screws!! geesh!!!

[BTBAIHeels]

Thanks ILK, this helps me understand more. You are right, they have been supporting me through a lot. And calling them narrow minded doesn't justify anything. I am not gay but for the LGBT part, my mom honestly strongly dislikes it. I actually have a couple of friends that are bisexual and lesbian. She doesn't know about that either but what I was trying to get at was: getting her to grow a small acceptance for my friends. After all my dad and mom did get the basement of our house done for a social hangout for all my sisters friends and mine to. I'm thinking she never would have thought about myself having LGBT friends. So I hope you have an understanding of what I'm trying to say. I do love my parents more than anything and I do appreciate all that they do for me.

I would have just walked away from the so called "born again", boy talk about a few loose screws!! geesh!!!

I may be born again, but it's not my area to say weather what your doing is right or wrong.

[mlroseplant]

I know this is not my job, it's actually Shafted's job, but may I suggest that we stop talking about religion any further than what is necessary for the context of this thread. So far, we've been commendably civil, but that can change in half a minute less than no time, and it will ruin what is a very important discussion.

 

I will tell you what has worked for me. I realize that I'm much closer to your parents' age than I am to your age, but I think the principle works the same. I have lived in this town for most of my adult life. People know me. They know me as generally a pretty nice guy, a reliable guy, and an ethical, "stand-up" guy. In that context, my unusual fashion choices have not really hurt me at all. I know people talk about me behind my back, but from what I've heard, it's not derisive, just curious.

 

So be a "stand-up" guy. Be the man who you've been raised to be. A guy who just happens to like to wear heels. I hope that people will accept you this way.

[Dr. Shoe]

What ever you say that directly deals with this is going to cause contention and issues on how it happened. They will blame you for succumbing to such enticements and then they will feel guilt and blame themselves for lacking the parenting skills to keep you from incurring such desires. To them, you were born with your sex and gender and their responsibility is to bring you up as they have been taught and understand life. You can't know all of their experiences in this area because they were probably private and singularly perceived. They might have even squelched any of these type of cognitions in order to return in compliance with their social/religious directives. If you could talk with them about their perceptions and how they arrived at their conclusions, may be this will help to open the dialogue you wish to discuss. Sometimes placing suggestions of your thoughts for them to ponder on at different times might be enough to set the atmosphere for such conversations. You'd have to play it by ear for the optimal opportunities to present your experiences concerning the desire you have to wear heels. They may never accept it, but the line of communication would still be intact. I wish you and anyone else success in wanting to show your parents the respect and love you have for them. 

Exactly why I say to just wear them and wait for them to comment.

[HappyinHeels]

BTBA Heels,        Read the thread and it's very interesting indeed. Lots of good advice here particularly from Dr. Shoe, HiStiletto, mlroseplant, and ilikeheels. Rather than quoting from the Bible I would point to something else that connects most of together; a common set of common-sense values like the patience to listen to one another and the ability to tolerate each other no matter how different.

I am of your parents' age group remembering when a dime in your pocket was like gold because it mean you could use a payphone anywhere to collect call that friend in a time of need. Five or six Tv channels that went off the air for the night, an area code covered an entire state in many cases, and people drank the water that came from household tap or from the garden hose. 

You'd be wiser to wear what you want and discuss it later. The moment you turned 18 you no longer neede your parent's permission to do anything. That doesn't mean you don't their love or understanding. The love should be eternal and the understanding, while not immediate, eventually comes. It takes far more energy to mistrust, hate, and put labels on everyone else than it does to simply absorb the world and try to understand it by listening and exhibiting tolerance. 

Above all else: When one points the finger of blame at another three fingers are always pointed back upon the one blaming the others.

HappyinHeels

[ilikekicks]

Thanks ILK, this helps me understand more. You are right, they have been supporting me through a lot. And calling them narrow minded doesn't justify anything. I am not gay but for the LGBT part, my mom honestly strongly dislikes it. 

 

 

I'm pretty sure your mother knows you see others as ' friends ' and ' human beings ' long before  and labels come into play.

 

The real problem that nobody even discusses is how things are FORCED into the picture to the point people now believe its a mandate and it ' complicates ' things.

 

Does it matter if your friends are gay? They are your friends, not hers. Does it matter if you wear heeled footware? Its your feet that will be uncomfortable ( supposedly ).

 

If your mother dislikes something, she can choose to feel in such a way. It doesnt mean you have to feel the same though.

 

Thats where the ' issues ' occur and where I feel the conversations have taken a turn for the worse.

 

In the past, there were wrong doings. People owning other people as property. People putting signs up in their store windows saying ' No niggers allowed '. Such was tolerated and not many people did anything about it. It took a century of time to start getting things right.

 

The problem though, in getting things ' right ', it went too far.

 

I will use myself as an example. Im part Puerto Rican. I ran a business as was the owner. There were contracts SPECIFICALLY put out that only ' minorities ' could bid on. It wasnt because my guys did better work. It wasnt because we were more efficient. We certainly werent faster. It was because of how I was born, nothing else.

 

In doing such, resentment was pushed my way by other business owners. Not because I was a ' spic ' as I was called, but I was given a preference over them by means of the law. It was FORCED upon then and it didnt matter if they were faster, better or more efficient. There was absolutely nothing they could do to get work for their workers so long as i was in the Area.

 

There cannot be ' equal protection under the law ' when people are excluded OR by designation SPECIFICALLY included. Things need to be for ' Everyone ' or ' Nobody at all '. No specifics.

 

Until You and I can recognize this, how can someone like your Mother ( or others that I know ) include all walks of life?

 

There are MANY non-religious people out there whom dont care for Gays. Their loss in my opinion. Most of them dont care what others do in their bedrooms but they speak of not wanting to hear about others sexuality or having it FORCED into the conversation. 

 

Theres many laws on the books in New York in regards to sexual harrassment. If a guy ' ogles ' a woman ( stares at her and is caught ), it could be grounds for termination in some instances. You have to watch what you say. If you like what a woman is wearing and tell her ' I find your outfit to be quite nice ', you might be seeing your boss later. 

 

Things have become THAT stupid.

 

Many wont like me saying this, but a law ( ANY law ) being written for one *specific* group of people ( Be it whites, negros, gays.. ) should not have any muster nor should it be legal. Again, ' For everyone ' or for nobody.

 

 

"I actually have a couple of friends that are bisexual and lesbian. "

 

OK? You have human friends. Thats good!

 

"She doesn't know about that either but what I was trying to get at was: getting her to grow a small acceptance for my friends."

 

Theres nothing YOU can do to get her to accept anything as its her home. Her ' Domain '. At best, you can tell her whom your friends are and if she doesnt care for them, advise her that times spent with them will be time away from her.. you will be around less because of such, but you understand thats the way it is. Dont be forceable with her, just state the obvious.

 

"After all my dad and mom did get the basement of our house done for a social hangout for all my sisters friends and mine to. I'm thinking she never would have thought about myself having LGBT friends. So I hope you have an understanding of what I'm trying to say. I do love my parents more than anything and I do appreciate all that they do for me."

 

Why do you have to put the term LGBT in the picture? Are your friends good people without such a designation? Does having such a designation make anyone ' better ' or ' worse ' in your opinion? It doesnt in my view, thus, its a non-factor.

 

The problem is ( and this is no fault of yours at all! ) you have been grown in an environment of ' modern times '. Everyone has to have a special designation. ' African Americans ', ' Puertorican American ', ' Jewish American ' , ' Gay American '.. Are we all not just Americans wanting the same protection under the law and being treated equally in such?

 

I would ask you "Why the segregation? Are we not all human?". 

 

Food for thought!

-ILK

[BTBAIHeels]

Hi Everyone! Long time no see... a lot has been going on and I finally have spare time! I'll give you the specs. I have transferred to a new school Colorado Early Colleges. In the school this semester I am currently taking 090 eng, reading, and literature. The fancy 090 stands for Intro. And next semester I'm going to be taking 121 english, and math or college eng and math! The goal for the time I graduate is to have an Associate's of science degree and a high school diploma. It's thrilling and fun since I tested out of high school level essentials.

But otherwise I have met more people and made more friends. But also during this time I have been pondering ILK's words. My friends are humans, your correct so in that I will not be specifing them any more as either LGBT or not. They are the people who care for me.

I'm turning 16 in November and I also have gotten my permit for driving. I'm going to be in Mexico from the 11-19 for vacation. Still no heels, but I am almost able to drive, I have to wait till next July. I have also turned Scene and all self expression like and life is good. So if you want to know any thing else just let me know. Thanks, BTBA

[ilikekicks]

Hi Everyone! Long time no see... a lot has been going on and I finally have spare time! I'll give you the specs. I have transferred to a new school Colorado Early Colleges. In the school this semester I am currently taking 090 eng, reading, and literature. The fancy 090 stands for Intro. And next semester I'm going to be taking 121 english, and math or college eng and math! The goal for the time I graduate is to have an Associate's of science degree and a high school diploma. It's thrilling and fun since I tested out of high school level essentials.

 

 

 

Its good to see your education advancing. Concentrate on the basics first ( Math, science, language, history ) and stay ahead of the curve. Without that foundation, the rest is meaningless.

 

 

But otherwise I have met more people and made more friends. But also during this time I have been pondering ILK's words. My friends are humans, your correct so in that I will not be specifing them any more as either LGBT or not. They are the people who care for me.

 

They are your FRIENDS at this stage in life. Thats all that matters.

 

I'm turning 16 in November and I also have gotten my permit for driving. I'm going to be in Mexico from the 11-19 for vacation. Still no heels, but I am almost able to drive, I have to wait till next July.

 

Freedom! The ability to drive!

 

I have also turned Scene and all self expression like and life is good. So if you want to know any thing else just let me know. Thanks, BTBA

 

Stay away from Emo's and cutters! Worry more about your education/classes then going to the next ' show '.

[BTBAIHeels]

Hi again! I'm back and now I'm back a year older too!!

I'm planning on draining my current savings account all of but $50 for a new laptop that costs about $850-900 dollars after tax. I also hav applied to several jobs ex: King Supers (aka Kroger), Ace Hardware Store, Target, and Goodtimes. I am currently waiting for King Supers to get back with me so I can take a drug test, and all the others I am waiting for an interview.

In the past time since the post I had been to Mexico and to the mall with three lady friends, and I had my first trip inside Victoria secret... and it was not fun (they hid my hat in the linger... it was awkward for me) and that sums that part up.

I will find out what courses I will get on Friday during my advising appointment and hopefully I won't have to take english anymore. I am succeeding in math and science and will be advancing in those courses towards computer programing.

As for my friend situation ILK, my friends have cut and are mostly emo, but they care about me in a way that no one has ever before, so they will remain my friends. I can not thank you enough for all the help you have given me ILK, you are also a friend to me despite the age difference. Thank you again,

Logging off,

BTBA