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The Male Lesbian and the Fashion Freestyler


kneehighs

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On behalf of a former member of hhplace.org, I submit to my fellow hhplace friends the following food for thought. :wink:

Do any of you envy female privilege? The right to be passive in female/male interactions? Do you identify with females through the wearing of high heels?

Feminine Style .  Masculine Soul.  Skin In The Game.

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I am all for some labels... "High Functioning Autisim" as it has made me understand myself better... some labels like "metrosexual" and Male Lesbian" make me scratch my head and wonder what the hell are they going on about.... sometimes I think there are too many labels.... I like to wear heels because it's part of my Autisim... it's NOT a fetish if I wasn't autistic I wouldn't be here... for the same reason I don't want kids... also I have a liking for PVC Pants/trousers/jeans although I don't have a pair yet... although I did see a goth girl wearing 7.5" block heels black patent 7.5" platform Knee boots and velt SEVERE envy...

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first of all thank you 'kneehighs' for opening a fascinating topic... ...I am having some trouble making a logical connection between a "male lesbian' and a "fashion freestyler"... the author of the linked article limits his anecdotes and interview material to disaffected males in their relations with females but makes no connection as to how this unhappiness may be reflected in his choices of attire... ..except to, perhaps, suggest that "freestylers" are unhappy with their roles in their relationships and "freestyling" is a form of stress-release/emotional sublimation of their frustrations at another level... ..and there may, indeed, be some merit in this suggestion but some of the author's assumptions take some pretty big leaps in their conclusions... ...as I said-great topic...these kinds of subjects contribute to an effort at understanding what makes us what we are... ..hope you guys add to this ...let's see what we can develop... Jim JSpikeheels

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JSpikeheels I'll be sure to notify the proper person of your gratitude! I hope my thread title or subsequent questions didn't misdirect anyones thinking . There's alot of intelligent people on this forum and it will be interesting to see what comes of this.

Feminine Style .  Masculine Soul.  Skin In The Game.

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I'm guessing the former poster is someone who went past freestyling into drag into transsexualism and now calls themselves a "lesbian" because they are still with women. As for "male lesbian," I think of Eddie Izzard when I hear that phrase. While he wears things considered "feminine" albeit it in a very butch way, I don't see how that makes him a lesbian of any stripe. This topic brings me to something of my past. When I was in my early teens and going to school in New York (I was a dancer/singer/actor), I started to hang around women's bars. I would dance with the baby dykes by the jukebox. I became known as a "dyke daddy." In fact, I was given the title by a woman I knew then. Because of my family connections and my studies, I knew a lot of homosexual woman, especially in theatre/music. They influenced my likes in women as well. As a certain woman said to me when I asked her what kind of women she likes, "I like aggressive femmes and cute butches." My DD dream is Portia DeRossi, aggressive label femme and all around babe. I admit, I envy women's freedom in certain areas such as clothing, that does not translate into a desire to be a woman. My personal style is very, very dykey. Tight jeans and stiletto boots, that is dyke style. Of couse that's not the only type of woman that wears that sort of thing, but that was dyke style. Nowadays, the term "dyke daddy" is used by extreme butches shading into wanting to be men.

"To kiss, pretty Saki, thy shoes' pretty tips, is better than kissing another girl's lips." -Omar Khayyam

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I'm guessing the former poster is someone who went past freestyling into drag into transsexualism and now calls themselves a "lesbian" because they are still with women.

....<snip>....

The person is a strict "freestyler" in every sense of the word. Not a hint of tv or ts tendencies present.

Feminine Style .  Masculine Soul.  Skin In The Game.

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JSpikeheels There's a lot of intelligent people on this forum and it will be interesting to see what comes of this.

...a guy may be "intelligent"...a guy may be inquisitive"...but few guys have both intelligence and inquisitiveness...

..which is why most men (in general) have not reached the "tipping point" that permits them the self-expression to explore the "other part of themselves" and look at us with "shock and awe" (tongue in cheek) when they see someone like we...(and because if they did consider expressing themselves they'd be on this forum..LOL)

Jim

JSpikeheels

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...a guy may be "intelligent"...a guy may be inquisitive"...but few guys have both intelligence and inquisitiveness...

..which is why most men (in general) have not reached the "tipping point" that permits them the self-expression to explore the "other part of themselves" and look at us with "shock and awe" (tongue in cheek) when they see someone like we...(and because if they did consider expressing themselves they'd be on this forum..LOL)

Jim

JSpikeheels

Not all men really want to explore "their other side." Some (greater percentage?) are quite content to be exactly what they are.....well adjusted male members of the species (not to say that we aren't "well adjusted").

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I still say that the music crowd ought to be encouraged to post here. There are men who wear heels and women who do AND like men who do as well. I think it has to be realised that women who are looking for a straight-laced business type will always be adamantly opposed to men in heels. They are the ones who are most likely to attract the classic transvestite, ironically enough.

"To kiss, pretty Saki, thy shoes' pretty tips, is better than kissing another girl's lips." -Omar Khayyam

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The "male lesbian?"

Isn't that more appropriately termed a "transexual lesbian?"

I'm confused, which is rare for me among gender issues...

I'm also puzzled, which is why I have no patience for labels people place on other people. I'm just an ordinary man who wears women's shoes. What's the flaming big deal about that?

I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman!

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Male lesbians! What a CROCK! Clearly this discussions fails to pass the "who cares" test. Another pointless discussion in my opinion. (Is a male "tranny" that likes men a homosexual?....and, like wise, is a male "tranny" that still prefers women a "lesbian?")

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The term USUALLY is used for someone such as Eddie Izzard, as he himself does. It has to do with wearing certain items, and being attracted to women while doing so. He does come from a TV background, and I'd say he has fallen for the psychs' "gender" bullshit. Nice heels, though.

"To kiss, pretty Saki, thy shoes' pretty tips, is better than kissing another girl's lips." -Omar Khayyam

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:wink:

I wonder how many people actually took the time to read between the covers here (the article linked)?

For those who are still interested, here is an explanation offered by the former member:

"Male Lesbian" and "Freestyling"(wearing high heels)

First and foremost, let me start out by saying that I am a man, I have no desires to become a woman, nor do I wish to cross dress as a woman. There are aspects of the female attire that I find apealing (such as high heels), but when I wear them in public, I wear them descretely so that only I know I am wearing them (and maybe others who are keen for looking for specific detail such as what exact footware I wearing).

Let me back up a second and explain why I sought after and found the term and the article on "Male Lesbians".

During my "tenure" on hhplace, I found myself normally left out in the cold. There were guys there that wanted to wear high heels openly and push the fashion boundry. Nope, not me. There were guys out there that enjoyed cross dressing and wearing heels as part of the feminine attire. Again, nope, not me. There were even guys who felt they were women trapped in a man's body and wore heels as part of that. Again, nope, not me.

So why exactly did I wish to wear heels? Upon relection, why does anyone wear heels? The answer we hear from the majority of women is either fashion or extra height. I've already established that I don't wear heels for fashion, the ones I wear are descrete, for me. Being 5'8" for a man, I might not be confused with your average football/basketball star, but I am also not lacking of height either. Also for most women and men that have ever worn a pair of heels, the moment you first put them on the sensation is incredible. The feeling of your foot at an arch is intoxicating. However, as most women (and men) will tell you, walk a few blocks in them, wear them for several hours, and your feet and legs will feel pain. Yet, I ignore all this and continue to wear heels. Why? Why would I endure the pain to wear heels if not for fashion, height, or other reasons mentioned?

This lead me to look around on the internet and see if I could find the reasons. Again, this exercise isn't to pigeon hole anyone into a label, but rather understand myself better.[emphasis by kneehighs] Afterall, if we are to explain to others our passion for wearing heels (wife, gf, parents, sisters, daughters, friends, coworkers) than we have to understand ourself first.

When I first came across the article for "Male Lesbians" I too laughed at the notion. Isn't that the actual definition of an oxymoron? How can a man be a lesbian? It sounded like some male fantasy for a 3some. But then I read further into the article.

Simply put, everyone has two main parts of what makes them them. A physical side and an emotional side (personality). The men interviewed in the article were of course physically men, but, they also had more of an emotional side that normally is associated with women. The term "Male Lesbian" is used to describe the fact that while the men had no desire to change genders, they also deep down wished they had been born a woman as they can relate to women more than men. However, if they would have been born a woman instead, physically, they would have still been attracted to women, not men. Therefore, they would have been a lesbian if born a woman.

Now, taking this definition and looking inward at myself, I can relate. My wife always jokes that I have the soul of a woman. A few examples are; I tend to be very romantic, I start shopping for gifts (anniversary, birthday, valentines day, christmas) MONTHS in advance. And it isn't simply shopping. I try to find something that fits the occasion and the person vs guys tend to run in the day before and buy whatever looks like they would get in less trouble. Another example, if given the opportunity to have a one night stand with a supermodel (no strings and no consiquences) or have a romantic evening in front of a fireplace with my soulmate (even if only cuddling and no sex were involved), I would always take the second. When I spend time with my family on various holidays or events, I always gravitate to being with the women vs sitting and watching sports with the guys. I tend to not get guys alot. I also don't frequent sports bars or watch sports "with the guys". I often spend hours helping my sister inlaw find the right shoes (or whatever else she wants) online. Not in attempt to "get with her" but rather, it is just an activity I just enjoy. My friendships with women tend to be in depth and open. My friendships with men tend to be small talk (there are of course exceptions).

That brings me back again to my original question. So why is it I wear heels when no one else will see them? Well, perhaps it is because wearing the heels allows me to experience what a woman feels while still being a man. And actually, this makes even more sense as I also wear toerings even though they are hidden inside my shoes, I wear an anklet even though it is hidden inside my pant legs, nylons even though they are inside my shoe, etc. Wearing the items allows me to feel the same sensations that women do when they wear the same articles. I have no desire to be a woman, however, I do like feeling the same things that women do.

I am open to comments/feedback. As Kneehighs said, I left hhplace for my own reasons, but I do still read from time to time and I do keep in touch with Kneehighs. I am open to kick this concept around in hopes that maybe it could help others out there that feel the same as I do come to terms with those feelings. Maybe it can help in your explaination with your significant other or parent or whomever. Afterall, you have to first understand yourself before you attempt to explain yourself to others.

Feminine Style .  Masculine Soul.  Skin In The Game.

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The link didn't work for me, I always got an error messge. I gave up trying. I have no need to wear heels to "experience what woman are feeling." I do wear them, but not for that reason. I also have a lot of personality traits people associate with women, but I don't see myself as a transsexual. My problem with "male lesbian" is its implication that not being a super-stereotypical man make you a weak person who wants to be a woman. A person can say they would like to be a woman to be with women. I've had thoughts myself along those lines, no transsexualism involved at all. That comes from envy of certain things that women are allowed to do that men are not. In my case, it also came from the dykes I knew being very "take no shit" types. I'd say that brought about my love of strong women. When I was a dyke daddy, I was around a lot of them. If I had continued my studies instead of being yanked out because was caught with a girl, I may very well have stayed in the little "family" I had. I often wonder about those women and if I may have eventually married one of them.

"To kiss, pretty Saki, thy shoes' pretty tips, is better than kissing another girl's lips." -Omar Khayyam

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DandyDude--Thanks for the update about the link. Here is the full link

http://www.love-shy.com/Gilmartin/Chapter05/Malelesbian.html

(insert "Chapter05/Malelesbian.html") after Gilmartin in the URL if the above link still does not work.

edit: this quote of yours totally addresses the authors views:

A person can say they would like to be a woman to be with women. I've had thoughts myself along those lines, no transsexualism involved at all. That comes from envy of certain things that women are allowed to do that men are not.

From former board member #1

So why is it I wear heels when no one else will see them? Well, perhaps it is because wearing the heels allows me to experience what a woman feels while still being a man. And actually, this makes even more sense as I also wear toerings even though they are hidden inside my shoes, I wear an anklet even though it is hidden inside my pant legs, nylons even though they are inside my shoe, etc. Wearing the items allows me to feel the same sensations that women do when they wear the same articles

Here's another quote from a different former hhplace member. It echos the same sentiments:

no matter how strenuously we object to the idea, or how elaborate a set of denials and self-deluding explanations we devise, the basic truth is that we like to participate to some degree in the woman experience. In our public heeling, we seek permission from women to reveal that we feel we are like them in some respect.

...<snip>...there is a profound feminine element in the psychology of every heeler, and it is an ineradicable part of our identity.

...Damn – the whole male/female vs. masculine/feminine thing is at the root of this. Let's face it: you have a Y chromosome? You're a male. You don't? You're a female. A guy can have his penis turned inside out, get himself pumped full of hormones, and have double-D's implanted, and still every cell in his body has one of those tell-tale little Y's in it. Male/female is by birth – masculine/feminine is up for grabs. All of us just have a little more feminine in the mix than we like to admit....

Feminine Style .  Masculine Soul.  Skin In The Game.

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I think that studies of various behaviors deviating from the socially accepted norm can yield better understanding of what makes us all tick and hopefully lead to a more enlightened approach to therapy (if needed) and maybe one day social aceptance. The process can certainly yield some strange "labels" such as male lesbians. If interpreted literally then the label seems absurd but on further reflection it does start to make some sense to me.

Women's fashion freedom and freedom of expression in general is definitely something I envy. While I enjoy a lot of typically male activities (not into watching sports, more of a gear head) and have male as well as female friends. I feel that I am in some way different from most males. So as a straight guy, when running the thought experiment of what would I be like if I were a woman I definitely come up with a lesbian description.

I suspect that there are many shades of the male lesbian, from the disaffected males in their relations with females on one end of the spectrum to guys who just would like to enjoy some of the freedoms that women do. Kind of like its OK for women to be tomboys. Does that make them female gay-boys? :wink:

Kneehighs, Thanks for posting the self analysis by our former member

"Male Lesbian" and "Freestyling"(wearing high heels)

It is very thoughtful and thorough. Furthermore I find I can relate to a lot of what is said.

I feel like I am in the middle. I identify strongly with certain female traits but also with certain male traits. For example would it not be great if I could spend the afternoon working on my hot rod car and then shower and go out in a glamorous outfit and discuss the latest fashion trends. The only stereotypical personality I can think of that even remotely would behave like this is a lesbian. Actually lets forget about wether any lesbian would enjoy an afternoon like I described. The important part is that she could get away with it without looking like a freak and attracting undue attention.

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Thanks for the link, Kneehighs. The main problem I have with "male lesbian" is that it implies that the man is an imitation woman. I think the thing to do is to try and more fully integrate one's personality. I do know that when I did what I did I didn't even have curiosity about being a woman, that came on reflection later. I also don't buy the "masculine/feminine" dichotomy either. With all the DSM bull going on, I can't help but recall when men taking style tricks from women was considered a bit hoodlum-y, not the "TG" nonsense it is now. I think how I've met women by asking them for makeup tips, I can't imagine someone who is twenty-ish doing that now, as women appear to want DL types who may very well give them AIDS. A side note that I'd like comments on: For a long time, a man/boy imitating women in certain ways actually helped him with them, and it was considered daring and a bit hoody as well. Example: Elvis Presley in his early days wore eye makeup, and had his hair dyed and styled in a beauty salon. Of course, we all know Elvis had a lot of female fans. I can't help but think of The Four Seasons covering "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?" That was an absolute chick song, and that took a lotta Moxie for Frankie and his boys to do that!!

"To kiss, pretty Saki, thy shoes' pretty tips, is better than kissing another girl's lips." -Omar Khayyam

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I have sometimes wondered why I am often more comfortable talking with women rather than men. It is easier to talk about a variety of subjects with many women, and more fun. I'm not into dirty jokes, bathroom humor, professional basketball or hockey, which I find too many men are. Yes, I am a sensitive person. And yet there are fewer women in my business (aviation) and I enjoy it with men. My wife was a sports fan - baseball, football, golf, track and field among others, as am I. Our sons were both athletes in school. We shared many interests and liked always being together. Yes, part of wearing heels is to experience what women do, at least in the beginning. It feels good. It still amazes me that they are so accepted on women but taboo on men. No sense in that. Of course, I don't think there is that much awareness or sentient thinking around. I guess many people like to fit into comfortable slots and not face up to anything upsetting or threatening other than ignore it or attack it. We usually use the term fashion freestyling to signify shoes, but it really applies to anything out of the mainstream. Look at Star Magazine's photos of the celebrities at New Years (on the Internet). The women are usually quite well dressed, but too many men are in ragged jeans and ratty T-shirts, and generally look crummy. I suppose that could be called freestyle. If you are rich or a celebrity you can get away with that. An ordinary guy would be thrown out or at least asked to leave. Lesbianism, from Lesbos, usually signifies sexual relationships. So, I don't think it applies that much here.

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Actually, the term "lesbian" as we know it today started as a name a certain group of literary women called themselves. It was more about Sappho's literariness rather than sexuality, if anything she was what we would now call bisexual. "Gay" used to be used to describe both sexes of homosexuals. Let's say I got it "straight" from the horse's mouth.

"To kiss, pretty Saki, thy shoes' pretty tips, is better than kissing another girl's lips." -Omar Khayyam

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For the record, I'm genetically straight, a psychological lesbian, emotionally intergendered, and a practicing anti-transvestic, non-crossdressing, non-freestyling fashion non-conformist. Wow. I'm sure that spun your brains. It did mine! Put simply, I'm a guy who identifies as a guy, likes football, sports, racing, but who is more comfortable with the holiday discussions among the females, who enjoys skirts and heels, but not appearing as a woman, and who wishes that the terms "skirt" and "heels" weren't contemporarily synonomous with women's fashion, but rather equally open to men's fashion. That doesn't stop me from wearing either, and it's refreshing to find that most females (not so much the males) rapidly adjust during airline flights and within minutes we're not talking about the skirt or heels I'm wearing but about schoolboard policy, women's rights, Congressional law, landscape architecture, or whatever else floats their boat. It's the women who, by far, are the most agile with respect to getting over the external acoutrements and getting down to brass tacks! The men usually freeze up, unless I provide icebreakers they're used to, such as discussing football scores.

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Boy did you hit it on the head, this is me.

Specifically, a "male lesbian" is a heterosexual man who wishes

that he had been born a woman, but who (even if he had been a woman)

could only make love to another woman and never to a man.

dr1819,

I like the way you think, but football and sports, I hate, but as you said and I quote "but who is more comfortable with the holiday discussions among the females, who enjoys skirts and heels, but not appearing as a woman, and who wishes that the terms "skirt" and "heels" weren't contemporarily synonomous with women's fashion, but rather equally open to men's fashion." Aman to that brother!!! Ho! thats a great look how may I fined a skirt that you are showing in your picture where can I get one? and from what I can see the boot look great.

I also feel it's time to end gender based clothing that men should have the same fashion rights as the woman have enjoyed for 60 years. Equality in Fashion!

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Glad we think alike!

Try Tall Girl

Thanks for the link! So many resources! I'll have lots of fun checking them out!

:wink:

I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman!

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  • 8 months later...

8)

I wonder how many people actually took the time to read between the covers here (the article linked)?

For those who are still interested, here is an explanation offered by the former member:

that is so autobiographical. Thanks kneehighs, and dr1819 as well.

"All that you can decide, is what to do with the time that is given you."--Gandalf,

"Life is not tried, it is merely survived

-If you're standing outside the fire."--Garth Brooks

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