If you owned a store, which model would you propose for mainstream men ?

[Gudulitooo]

In another thread, I had to imagine being in the position of a store owner, trying to follow, or introduce, heels for men as a mainstream fashion. (and hopefully increase his revenues)

Right now, it seems that HHplace members can only be satisfied with what they find in the womens aisle, because they already had a taste of the available variety of choices, colors, etc. from the other side.

So let's say the target customers are 1% hhplace members (the part that will anyway buy even if less choice is available), and 99% fashion consicous guys that have never had a thought regarding high heels (neither negative nor positive), and even less for men, and that could be seduced by a refreshing idea. Let's also say that you own a complete set of retails stores (e.g Nordstrom), how would you introduce this ?

Which how many different models in each store ?

In which stores ? (the ones in the malls ? on the street in huge city centers ? at resorts ?)

And of course, with which models ?

I thought it would be interesting for you to gather your ideas here.... Also maybe I should have posted this in the "for everybody section"

Edited June 22, 2016 by Gudulitooo

[Chorlini]

Methinks 99% of all men buying heels are high heel fetishists who just want to buy women's shoes, just in a size that fits their feet well. And then there's probably that 1% that hangs out here on hhplace and dreams of high heels for men being as normal and accepted as high heels for women. Which probably skews the thinking of some here. I'm probably more into the former group then the latter but I find it nice to hang out online with other men who share similar interests.

 

Now you could try to introduce heels for men as a mainstream fashion but you'd be fighting an uphill battle. For your intended customer base does not exist yet while you basically ignore the already existing customer base. Now, who knows what you can accomplish with smart advertising and savvy social media campaigning but methinks it depends on the zeitgeist. High heels for men would do well in the 70's when platform shoes for everybody were king. Or a few years ago when metrosexual men were all the rage. Right now, I don't think so. Considering that all the hip people are growing beards again I don't think there's a potential market to be tapped for footwear that still is considered female by the vast majority.

[Shyheels]

I agree. At best one might be able to market a Chelsea boot with slightly higher than expected heels. At best.

[Gudulitooo]

Thanks for your answers. I have to adjust the question: of course the shoes are not intended to become mainstream (everybody wearing them). Rather they would have to be accepted by mainstream people, so that a few of the most fashion conscious of them can buy and wear them confortably in public as men, yet enough to turn this into a nice experience for everybody (the seller included)

Chorlini, I hope you are wrong by stating 99% of hhplace members only have a fetish for womens shoes. Maybe only 98% :-). Anyway, some of them are bringing (or willing to bring) their women shoes on the street, aren't they ?

[robbiehhw]

Potentially a chain that simply advertised itself as Unisex fashion could garner a lot of attention in progressive urban areas. Perhaps a boutique with something like 20 models and a lot of other clothes and accessories.

Part of the challenge is pricing. Boutiques have boutique suppliers available to them, and in general. DSW, H&M, Forever 21, Etc. all have incredibly efficient supply chains that deliver fashionable (albeit perhaps more cheaply made) choices, following fashion trends closely. The prices gap is huge between the two. 

Stores that have brand recognition with premier labels can command big prices, but of course the barrier to entry there is big.

[Gudulitooo]

1 hour ago, robbiehhw said:

Potentially a chain that simply advertised itself as Unisex fashion could garner a lot of attention in progressive urban areas

You are right, but it would stay an isolated highly specialized boutique,or even a chain or boutiques (Maybe like Clark's, or even Geox, that are not in every mall)

My question exactly refers to chains like DSW or H&M: yes this would imply them to ask the supply chain to design (or select / adapt) one or several models, and have them manufactured on purpose, not as prototypes, with the general people as customer target, or to the least, a range that affords a pair between 50 and 150$. And yes it implies an investment, thus needs to find justification.

It could also be a store that does not or hardly have sales assistants. (the ones that have all the models already exposed in boxes)

Edited June 22, 2016 by Gudulitooo

[robbiehhw]

That could certainly work. H&M put a male targeted skirt out for a while i believe.  I see guys shopping on the women's side of H&M and vice versa all the time. The trend for  males to wear women's jeans seems to be on the rise. Obviously the same thing exists for women as a lot of clothing get's marketed as "boyfriend jeans" or "boyfriend shirt" etc.

[Chorlini]

2 hours ago, Gudulitooo said:

Chorlini, I hope you are wrong by stating 99% of hhplace members only have a fetish for womens shoes. Maybe only 98% :-). Anyway, some of them are bringing (or willing to bring) their women shoes on the street, aren't they ?

You probably misunderstood me, in which case let me clarify. I think 99% of all men who buy heels are fetishists. But that the remaining 1% is way over represented here at hhplace, which probably makes them think there are more like them then there actually are. Because it creates a sort of echo chamber that reinforces that kind of thinking. The internet does this all the time. The vast majority of men buying heels however have little to no interest in changing fashion and/or buying heels aimed towards men.

One of the reasons I think this  is because almost ALL the webstores that sell fetish heels offer large sizes. So apparently they know and recognize who's also buying them. Whereas all the stores and webstores that sell more normal heeled shoes barely offer anything beyond size US10/UK8/EU42.

[Shyheels]

Bingo

[robbiehhw]

2 hours ago, Chorlini said:

You probably misunderstood me, in which case let me clarify. I think 99% of all men who buy heels are fetishists. But that the remaining 1% is way over represented here at hhplace, which probably makes them think there are more like them then there actually are. Because it creates a sort of echo chamber that reinforces that kind of thinking. The internet does this all the time. The vast majority of men buying heels however have little to no interest in changing fashion and/or buying heels aimed towards men.

One of the reasons I think this  is because almost ALL the webstores that sell fetish heels offer large sizes. So apparently they know and recognize who's also buying them. Whereas all the stores and webstores that sell more normal heeled shoes barely offer anything beyond size US10/UK8/EU42.

I'd love to see a survey. I think you may have been more right in the past. Today you have more and more gender fluid and gender questioning folks than in the past. Most did not know it was even a thing until recently. They are mainly young people (ok not David Bowie, Prince and Boy George but in general). There is also a whole category of gender questioning folks that are dressing in heels at times, and will eventually decide they are women. This is what I did, i wore heels about 20 yrs before i decided to transition. I think my first pair were around age 21. So, in these categories you have a lot of non-fetishist wearers. Except possibly as a teen, i don't ever recall having a fetish like thrill from wearing shoes or any women's wear. It was and is more a calming and "makes me feel good about myself" feeling.

What i see on Tumblr, instagram, and Twitter is possibly representative of those groups of people.  

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by robbiehhw

[SkirtDude]

5 hours ago, robbiehhw said:

That could certainly work. H&M put a male targeted skirt out for a while i believe.  I see guys shopping on the women's side of H&M and vice versa all the time. The trend for  males to wear women's jeans seems to be on the rise. Obviously the same thing exists for women as a lot of clothing get's marketed as "boyfriend jeans" or "boyfriend shirt" etc.

The "skirt" they put out was awful, like a poor man's kilt. Some strange reason designers keep integrating trousers or legging / shorts with the "skirt" which defeats the object of a skirt in the first place.  Some too are embarrassing  looking aprons which cover the crotch of badly made trousers , but at a high price. That's why I just buy women's skirts which cost a fraction of the price and generally fit better too! I have seen the "boyfriend" jeans, shirt etc but in London lots of guys are wearing extremely tight jeans that could pass for leggings and I am sure they are from the other side of the aisle  

[robbiehhw]

Yeah a lot of male skirts i have seen are like that. Like you, I buy from the other side. Another thing i have seen is a guy wearing a shirt dress over leggings/skinny jeans like a long long shirt. That looks pretty nice. The one guy i saw recently in that outfit was wearing doc martin type boots, but i am 80% sure they were these in the very dark red:

http://www.drmartens.com/us/p/originals-boots-arcadia-emmeline

On a tall guy a shirt dress like this would work pretty well for that sort of outfit:

http://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?vid=3&pid=712009022

[Chorlini]

On 22-6-2016 at 10:34 PM, robbiehhw said:

I'd love to see a survey. I think you may have been more right in the past. Today you have more and more gender fluid and gender questioning folks than in the past. Most did not know it was even a thing until recently. They are mainly young people (ok not David Bowie, Prince and Boy George but in general). There is also a whole category of gender questioning folks that are dressing in heels at times, and will eventually decide they are women. This is what I did, i wore heels about 20 yrs before i decided to transition. I think my first pair were around age 21. So, in these categories you have a lot of non-fetishist wearers. Except possibly as a teen, i don't ever recall having a fetish like thrill from wearing shoes or any women's wear. It was and is more a calming and "makes me feel good about myself" feeling.

What i see on Tumblr, instagram, and Twitter is possibly representative of those groups of people.  

 

 

Confirmation bias makes us see what we want to see. Especially if you are part of a certain subculture you tend to encounter a lot more members of said subculture then if you're outside. And you tend to overestimate the impact and importance of what your subculture is doing. I see ZERO men in heels, I see ZERO transgenders, I see ZERO young people exhibiting gender fluidity. I live in an university city that's both fairly big and VERY liberal. It's so leftist it's nickname is to name it after the capital of communist Cuba. And in all the time I lived here I've seen ONE guy in a skirt. No heels.

Now I believe my city does have a transgender community. But I doubt its that big and I doubt it's changing culture. What I do notice is that in this city I live in the ONLY store that sells high heels in larger men's sizes is a sex shop. The biggest women's shoes you can find in the retail stores are EU42, very limited choice, with the odd EU43 somewhere, and usually so ugly I might as well buy a pair of men's shoes instead. Now this may be confirmation bias on my part, and maybe I'm not part of the right circles. But it was starting to become more common amongst young people to start wearing women's shoes wouldn't that translate in the retail stores stocking more larger sizes and offering a better selection as well? They're not stupid, and they're in it to make money. If there exists this growing customer base, why are the only ones tapping in to it sex shops and fetish heels web stores?

[Gudulitooo]

Chorlini,

I suppose this is a chicken and egg story.

The reason why I started this thread.

You see things on the social media, but hardly in real life. Where is the gap ?

[mlroseplant]

It does seem that there is a buzz about gender fluidity in the media these days, mainly due to U.S. politics, but like Chorlini, I haven't seen ANY of it in my town, which is also a university town. I am the only man I've ever met who wears heels. Period. I expect to die being the only man in this town who wears heels. Although I am well accepted by a surprising demographic of people, not one of my male friends or aquaintances has ever shown the slightest interest in wearing heels.

However (brightening up a bit), I have managed to influence the women in my life somewhat. Two of my aquaintances who never wore heels just had to try them after seeing me constantly in heels, and now both wear them occasionally. A third woman has turned from an occasional heel wearer into a regular heel wearer under my influence.

If I'm any influence on guys, I'm certainly unaware of it. I imagine most of them simply think, "That Melrose, he a weird dude, but he's all right."

[Shyheels]

I think people are mistaking slacktivism with activism. It is easy these days to click on 'like' buttons or sign on-line petitions, things that require minimal personal effort, engagement or risk. Support a worthy cause or ideal with a quick click and move on with your real life...

 

Edited June 25, 2016 by Shyheels

[Gudulitooo]

Of course, but I counting the reactions, the initial posts/tweets/pictures/runways/events have still happened.

So you might look for these posters to appear also on the street.

Maybe the difference lies in the public. On the internet, it seems more fair because the reactions including attacks are public also, while in the street, the public may react without being watched (especially in a dark narrow street in the evening).

Edited June 25, 2016 by Gudulitooo

[Shyheels]

5 hours ago, mlroseplant said:

It does seem that there is a buzz about gender fluidity in the media these days, mainly due to U.S. politics, but like Chorlini, I haven't seen ANY of it in my town, which is also a university town. I am the only man I've ever met who wears heels. Period. I expect to die being the only man in this town who wears heels. Although I am well accepted by a surprising demographic of people, not one of my male friends or aquaintances has ever shown the slightest interest in wearing heels.

However (brightening up a bit), I have managed to influence the women in my life somewhat. Two of my aquaintances who never wore heels just had to try them after seeing me constantly in heels, and now both wear them occasionally. A third woman has turned from an occasional heel wearer into a regular heel wearer under my influence.

If I'm any influence on guys, I'm certainly unaware of it. I imagine most of them simply think, "That Melrose, he a weird dude, but he's all right."

Nice to bring change and new ideas into the lives of others. If at the end of your days the 'worst' thing anyone can think to say about you was that you were a little offbeat in your choice of footwear, you will have led a pretty blameless life!

[robbiehhw]

When i purchased a certain type of sports car, i started to see them all over. So certainly being aware of it, understanding it and identifying with it, provides some sort of bias. On the other hand so does having a more traditional mind set as it relates to gender roles. 

I live in a college town of about 50K people more or less, there are at least 20K of those that are students that live here for 1-8 yrs. I have seen 5-6 transgender women, dressed appropriately in town. I have seen perhaps 10-12 others that are likely gender fluid/ non-binary. I have not gone to the local transgender support group here but I likely will sometime in the future. They meet monthly.

I saw two people in the last week alone, that i had never seen before. One a 20ish young feminine person, dressed awesomely at Starbucks wearing ankle boots, and the other a 30ish more fluid person with facial hair, a skirt and wedged heels. It is hard to categorize people without really knowing them but those are just the people i have seen. Usually very masculine women or feminine leaning men, in the gender fluid crowd. Men that have been in heels only with everything else presenting as masculine? I may have seen 1 here and a few more in my travels. My office is really close to campus, so i see more young people than older. This is a very socially liberal town. 

Social media is likely an indicator of real life. Without a doubt the acceptance of trans people in the human rights, the military, schools and entertainment will get more people to come out. In that group will be more men that are gender fluid, some of those will wear heels. It will be interesting to see if the amount of men that don't really see themselves as gender variant, will adopt more heels, with more of that coming out in fashion. Certainly designers are pushing gender fluid wear for an economic reason. Skirts, culottes, flowery tops, makeup etc. On the flip side butch and fluid men are getting a lot more masculine choices in suits etc,

Edited June 25, 2016 by robbiehhw
Removed dupe sentence

[Gudulitooo]

Robbiehhw,

if I understand well, the present men who wear heels are mostly into a gender fluid move. Yet the designers I have seen proposing unisex clothing totally ignore this. They only propose "converse" like shoes, as you previously stated, which are too limited for gender fluid people. Only Hourani had something, but it was fluid only within his own collection. Gender fluid is also blending in, which Rad had not.

[robbiehhw]

13 minutes ago, Gudulitooo said:

Robbiehhw,

if I understand well, the present men who wear heels are mostly into a gender fluid move. Yet the designers I have seen proposing unisex clothing totally ignore this. They only propose "converse" like shoes, as you previously stated, which are too limited for gender fluid people. Only Hourani had something, but it was fluid only within his own collection. Gender fluid is also blending in, which Rad had not.

Very decent point. A certainly level of gender fluidity and dressing that way is hard to recognize because it blends in pretty well.

[kneehighs]

9 hours ago, robbiehhw said:

Social media is likely an indicator of real life. Without a doubt the acceptance of trans people in the human rights, the military, schools and entertainment will get more people to come out. In that group will be more men that are gender fluid, some of those will wear heels. It will be interesting to see if the amount of men that don't really see themselves as gender variant, will adopt more heels, with more of that coming out in fashion. Certainly designers are pushing gender fluid wear for an economic reason. Skirts, culottes, flowery tops, makeup etc. On the flip side butch and fluid men are getting a lot more masculine choices in suits etc,

I think anyone who thinks social media doesn't affect consumer buying behavior isn't basing their opinion on qualified research.   I sat with the entire global marketing team for Hugo Boss at their bi-annual in house runway show in Metzingen, Germany.  Their ROI for paid social media posts with A-listers like Chiara Ferragni and/or Bryan Boy far exceeds the ROI from blue chip media advertising in Vogue/NYTimes--far exceeds.  There are hundreds of examples of this nowadays.  There are even agencies dedicated to Digital Influencer representation.  DBA in NYC, Socialyte in NYC, Fohr Card in NYC, F-hits in Sao Paulo...the list is endless.   Even a post from local Houston blogger with 175K followers converts into a sell out sale. 

Still though, I personally wouldn't put time or money into a men in heels line.  Depending on your strategy, here's a list of tradeshows one could start with though.

[Gudulitooo]

On ‎25‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 1:00 PM, mlroseplant said:

It does seem that there is a buzz about gender fluidity in the media these days, mainly due to U.S. politics, but like Chorlini, I haven't seen ANY of it in my town, which is also a university town. I am the only man I've ever met who wears heels. Period. I expect to die being the only man in this town who wears heels. Although I am well accepted by a surprising demographic of people, not one of my male friends or aquaintances has ever shown the slightest interest in wearing heels.

However (brightening up a bit), I have managed to influence the women in my life somewhat. Two of my aquaintances who never wore heels just had to try them after seeing me constantly in heels, and now both wear them occasionally. A third woman has turned from an occasional heel wearer into a regular heel wearer under my influence.

If I'm any influence on guys, I'm certainly unaware of it. I imagine most of them simply think, "That Melrose, he a weird dude, but he's all right."

mlroseplant,

thank you for your input. My limited experience is that in a given closed community (eg the parents at school, or a business team, etc.) there will be one or two women in heels.

Maybe this is because the community is a representative sample of all possibilities, and there are so many that only a few women that decide to present themselves in heels are represented.

Maybe also because the position is something to hold, with other women (jealous or not) calling them bimbos or being intimidated. Only with time they tend to appreciate them for what they are, anf finally some will also give heels a try, usually with less bold shoes (stacked heels, boots, etc).

mlroseplant, it seems that you holded the position in your community.

Nethertheless, at the current spread of men daring to wear heels, there are too little chances that you had a buddy within your local community. But at the world level, it is sure you influenced a lot of guys !

Edited June 26, 2016 by Gudulitooo
typo

[Gudulitooo]

9 hours ago, kneehighs said:

 

Still though, I personally wouldn't put time or money into a men in heels line.  Depending on your strategy, here's a list of tradeshows one could start with though.

Kneehighs, your comment is much appreciated. But could you give some explanation to your position ?

 

Based on what was told earlier, maybe we should separate men in heels and gender fluid persons. The latter also integrate men in heels, but more blended in thus likely to shop for regular womens shoes, what do you think ?

[Gudulitooo]

19 hours ago, robbiehhw said:

 

 

I saw two people in the last week alone, that i had never seen before. One a 20ish young feminine person, dressed awesomely at Starbucks wearing ankle boots, and the other a 30ish more fluid person with facial hair, a skirt and wedged heels.

 

So that is a start. At least we could prose wedges. Sneakers also ?

[kneehighs]

5 hours ago, Gudulitooo said:

Kneehighs, your comment is much appreciated. But could you give some explanation to your position ?

 

Based on what was told earlier, maybe we should separate men in heels and gender fluid persons. The latter also integrate men in heels, but more blended in thus likely to shop for regular womens shoes, what do you think ?

What I think?  Put in more time into selling, than money.  Make a prototype.  Try and actually sell it.  Then see what happens after you have real world sales feedback.  Who is buying? How much are they willing to pay?   Try trade shows, online, facebook advertising, amazon, ebay.....My hunches could be wrong so try selling anyway you can.  Then you can make better decisions.

Appealing to the entire gender fluid market trend seems to be reasonable.  It creates a larger market opportunity.    

[kneehighs]

Not about heels, but about ballerina flats for men.

http://www.repetto.com/en/men-ballerina-caruso-patent-leather-black-v1683v410.html

http://footwearnews.com/2015/fashion/designers/gucci-mens-spring-2016-shoes-collection-52080/

Edited June 26, 2016 by kneehighs

[Gudulitooo]

This huy has gathered a nice collection. https://fr.pinterest.com/jrgenschiemang/wedges-for-men-heels-for-men/ . I would also had wedges shoes / boots that are not sneakers.

12 hours ago, kneehighs said:

What I think?  Put in more time into selling, than money.  Make a prototype.  Try and actually sell it.  Then see what happens after you have real world sales feedback.  Who is buying? How much are they willing to pay?   Try trade shows, online, facebook advertising, amazon, ebay.....My hunches could be wrong so try selling anyway you can.  Then you can make better decisions.

Is it the only way (creating a complete "new and dedicated product" with all the marketing that goes along ?)

In the position of a store owner, could one just present in the middle of the store an alley with shoes that both men and women are likely to buy ?

Would it hurt the sellers ?

 

 

[Gudulitooo]

Again, looking at

On ‎26‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 11:18 PM, kneehighs said:

What I think?  Put in more time into selling, than money.  Make a prototype.  Try and actually sell it.  Then see what happens after you have real world sales feedback.  Who is buying? How much are they willing to pay?   Try trade shows, online, facebook advertising, amazon, ebay.....My hunches could be wrong so try selling anyway you can.  Then you can make better decisions.

Appealing to the entire gender fluid market trend seems to be reasonable.  It creates a larger market opportunity.    

Again, looking at this man, or our JeffB, and many others here, it seems that it woukd not be the point to develop a specific line for men (even if I am also aware of YSL boots, but to me they only set a high price to be more convincing, while the actual shoes come right from already designed and proven womens boots - past or present).

To me the question is more "how to propose the shoes also to men so that

1) men are confortable buying them in store. The sales assistant being supportive is of course a prerequisite, but it seems only bold guys can do it now, because there is the looks from other customers

2) nd most of all, the other cherished customers (women !) should be comfortable in the store while guys are browsing. On a market standpoint this is mandatory."

 

[robbiehhw]

8 hours ago, Gudulitooo said:

 

2) nd most of all, the other cherished customers (women !) should be comfortable in the store while guys are browsing. On a market standpoint this is mandatory."

 

I'm happy to say that with 20+ yrs shopping in women's sections and stores, i have maybe seen less than a handful of customers that at all seemed visibly uncomfortable with me shopping along side of them.